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	<title>Comments on: Wet and Wandering</title>
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	<link>http://www.joethorn.net/2005/07/11/wet-and-wandering/</link>
	<description>theology. church. culture. life.</description>
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		<title>By: Joe Thorn</title>
		<link>http://www.joethorn.net/2005/07/11/wet-and-wandering/#comment-446</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Thorn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jul 2005 04:36:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Consistent, prolonged absence from God&#039;s gathered people would qualify as forsaking the assembly. In such cases, after pastoral/leadership care and investigation is worked out without a response from the wandering member, discipline could be carried out in the form of membership suspension (or suspension of privelages) or termination.

The problem with your second point is that we have been doing the very thing you may be suggesting. People confess Jesus (at some level) and are baptized in our churches very quickly. But we never see them again. This is the fruit of a larger problem whose root is buried in the soil of bad doctrine.

What should we do? Jim makes some good suggestions in the article you quoted, though more could be said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Consistent, prolonged absence from God&#8217;s gathered people would qualify as forsaking the assembly. In such cases, after pastoral/leadership care and investigation is worked out without a response from the wandering member, discipline could be carried out in the form of membership suspension (or suspension of privelages) or termination.</p>
<p>The problem with your second point is that we have been doing the very thing you may be suggesting. People confess Jesus (at some level) and are baptized in our churches very quickly. But we never see them again. This is the fruit of a larger problem whose root is buried in the soil of bad doctrine.</p>
<p>What should we do? Jim makes some good suggestions in the article you quoted, though more could be said.</p>
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		<title>By: John Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.joethorn.net/2005/07/11/wet-and-wandering/#comment-445</link>
		<dc:creator>John Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:55:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I&#039;ll try to stay on subject more. Elliff said &quot;Such discipline for non-attendance is clearly found in the history of Baptists—but more importantly, in the Bible.&quot; I&#039;m open to be shown where, but I don&#039;t recall anyone in the bible being disciplined for non-attendance. The discipline of the NT seems to be disassociation, a non-attender has disassociated himself.

Elliff also said &quot;The dangerous practice of receiving new members immediately after they walk the aisle must finally be abandoned.&quot; Pre-baptism counsel is not evident from the NT. Repent and be baptized. I also think the parable of the sower must be kept in mind. More seed fails than produces lasting fruit.
If discipline, Lord&#039;s Supper, and involvement with the church are means of grace for growth of a believer, wouldn&#039;t it make more sense to bring people into membership upon confession, so that they can be subject to the regular ministry of the church. Delay of acceptance into membership (if membership is that important) seems to be self defeating in promoting maturity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll try to stay on subject more. Elliff said &#8220;Such discipline for non-attendance is clearly found in the history of Baptists—but more importantly, in the Bible.&#8221; I&#8217;m open to be shown where, but I don&#8217;t recall anyone in the bible being disciplined for non-attendance. The discipline of the NT seems to be disassociation, a non-attender has disassociated himself.</p>
<p>Elliff also said &#8220;The dangerous practice of receiving new members immediately after they walk the aisle must finally be abandoned.&#8221; Pre-baptism counsel is not evident from the NT. Repent and be baptized. I also think the parable of the sower must be kept in mind. More seed fails than produces lasting fruit.<br />
If discipline, Lord&#8217;s Supper, and involvement with the church are means of grace for growth of a believer, wouldn&#8217;t it make more sense to bring people into membership upon confession, so that they can be subject to the regular ministry of the church. Delay of acceptance into membership (if membership is that important) seems to be self defeating in promoting maturity.</p>
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		<title>By: John Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.joethorn.net/2005/07/11/wet-and-wandering/#comment-444</link>
		<dc:creator>John Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:13:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I tend to lump Elliff and Whitney into one, but I don&#039;t think Whitney would agree with my statement. http://www.spiritualdisciplines.org/whyjoin.html
He tries to justify church membership and rolls according to the NT. Maybe Elliff is more nuanced than Whitney and I need to reevaluate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I tend to lump Elliff and Whitney into one, but I don&#8217;t think Whitney would agree with my statement. <a href="http://www.spiritualdisciplines.org/whyjoin.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.spiritualdisciplines.org/whyjoin.html</a><br />
He tries to justify church membership and rolls according to the NT. Maybe Elliff is more nuanced than Whitney and I need to reevaluate.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Thorn</title>
		<link>http://www.joethorn.net/2005/07/11/wet-and-wandering/#comment-443</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Thorn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jul 2005 13:41:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>JM,

You said, &quot;If he said church membership and rolls are a human invention that enables us to practice the biblical pattern of church discipline, therefore our rolls should contain only true members; then I would say you&#039;re right.&quot; I have had several conversations with Elliff and know his theology. This is precisely what he would say.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JM,</p>
<p>You said, &#8220;If he said church membership and rolls are a human invention that enables us to practice the biblical pattern of church discipline, therefore our rolls should contain only true members; then I would say you&#8217;re right.&#8221; I have had several conversations with Elliff and know his theology. This is precisely what he would say.</p>
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		<title>By: John Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.joethorn.net/2005/07/11/wet-and-wandering/#comment-442</link>
		<dc:creator>John Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:55:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It&#039;s not because I hate Ellif that I disagree with everything he says. It is the theological slant of everything he says. If he said church membership and rolls are a human invention that enables us to practice the biblical pattern of church discipline, therefore our rolls should contain only true members; then I would say you&#039;re right. But he tries to set his vision as THE biblical model. Then he says other people are UNbiblical. Just admit that you are listening to scripture, tradition, and reason and I&#039;ll be ok with it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not because I hate Ellif that I disagree with everything he says. It is the theological slant of everything he says. If he said church membership and rolls are a human invention that enables us to practice the biblical pattern of church discipline, therefore our rolls should contain only true members; then I would say you&#8217;re right. But he tries to set his vision as THE biblical model. Then he says other people are UNbiblical. Just admit that you are listening to scripture, tradition, and reason and I&#8217;ll be ok with it.</p>
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