The Sword and Spirits
In the Bible wine is the fermented juice of grapes. The claim by some, that the wine God gave Israel to drink was non-alcoholic, is spurious and not attested to by biblical scholarship. While the Bible does condemn drunkenness, it does not condemn the use of wine. In fact,
God himself provides “wine which makes man’s heart glad” just as He gives “food which sustains man’s heart” (Ps. 104:14.15). He promises His people that, if they will obey Him, He will bless them with an abundance of wine (Deut 7:13, 11:14, Prov. 3:10. etc.). He threatens to withdraw this blessing from them if they disobey His law (Deut. 28:39, 51; Isa. 62:8). The Scriptures clearly teach that God permits His people to enjoy wine and strong drink as a gift from Him. “You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires, for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household” (Deut. 14:26). Under certain circumstances it is even commanded of God that wine and strong drink be given (Pr. 31:6,7). And since wine was used in the worship of God (Ex. 29:40, Lev. 23:13; Nu. 15:5,7,10; 28:14), the Bible says wine is something that cheers God as well as man (Jud. 9:13).
G.I. Williamson, Wine in the Bible and the Church
Dr. Jack Graham, pastor of Prestonwood Baptist Church, recently wrote an article calling for Christians to completely abstain from alcohol as the only godly course of action in a culture severely damaged by drunkenness. He said, “In my estimation, there is only one cure for this problem we have and it is not moderation. The only answer is total abstinence.”
I believe the cure for drunkenness is not abstinence or moderation, but the gospel itself.I believe the cure for drunkenness is not abstinence or moderation, but the gospel itself. But I understand his concern. We should all be concerned about our culture’s view and abuse of alcohol. But is abstinence really the best response? The best way of showing people the kingdom of God? As long as there has been wine there has been drunkenness. Yet God never commanded abstinence of his people. In fact, while the nation of Israel was made to look unique/holy in many ways, distinguishing them from the rest of the world through civil laws, God never called them to be teetotalers. Drunkenness was condemned as sin, but wine and strong drink were portrayed as gifts from God meant to be enjoyed.
Does God want us to commit ourselves to “total abstinence?” The answer must be “no” if we believe that Scripture is sufficient concerning all faith and practice, since abstinence is nowhere commanded. Rather, I believe the power of the Gospel is not seen in fleeing what God gives us to enjoy, but in using such gifts rightly, and not abusing them. In a culture of gluttony and drunkenness, the more powerful testimony is not extra-biblical law, but the fruit of the Spirit, of which “self-control” is a part. Self-control is precisely what our culture has lost, and the temperate use of alcohol by God’s people demonstrates the counter-cultural Kingdom ethics and the power of God more profoundly than “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch.”
The truth is I respect those who abstain from drinking alcohol. At our church there is a sizable percentage of people who do not drink for one reason or another, but do not argue this is the path God expects all people to follow. At the same time there are those who do drink moderately at our church, and no drama erupts even when gathered together at a wedding reception where both habits can been seen. We even have former addicts in our church, and though some of them may abstain, they do not expect anyone else to do the same.
What troubles me is not that Dr. Graham believes abstinence is a good option, but that he believes it is the only option and that Baptist Press gives this sort of thing attention. I doubt that we will see an alternate view in the BP headlines any time soon.
Some great material on this topic is listed below, some of which is available online for free.
Hearts Made Glad: A Tribute to Wine, St. Anne’s Public House [audio journal]
Wine in the Bible and the Church, G.I. Williamson [available as pdf]
God Gave Wine, Ken Gentry
Drinking with Calvin and Luther, Jim West
Well said, Joe. And next time you are in my neck of the woods, I’ll buy your egg for you. Over a pint, of course.
I’ll take you up on that bro.
Joe, very good post. Clear biblical thinking it hard to find from SBC’rs on many issues and this on in particular. Bravo.
Joe,
Great thoughts here that seem to be faithful to Scripture and to sound reasoning. A lot of those passages on wine from the Bible are new to me. Not surprisingly, they aren’t quoted too much from the typical Baptist pulpit.
What circumstances, if any, do you feel that a Christian should/would surrender his/her right to drink alcohol (perhaps for a short period of time or a long period of time)? The passages of 1 Cor. 8-9 and Romans 14 come to mind in thinking about the concern for another person’s opinion or perception of your actions–even if they are biblically sound. Perhaps though a one-on-one conversation between a brother in the faith could help to reconcile a “drinker’s” theology with a teetotaler’s (I learned a new word today) theology.
I also appreciate your meekness here in discussing a controversial topic that you appear to be passionate about.
Joe, I heartily concur with the other comments…very well said. I hope and pray that this sort of biblical thinking represents the direction in which the SBC is heading contra that of Jack Graham’s. On that note, to what extent does Graham’s position represent the current SBC? I’m an outsider, so I have no grasp on this.
Joe,
I’ve never had a drop of alcohol in my life, and don’t really intend to. That said, I think your response to Dr. Graham’s article was excellent and it mirrors my opinion. Though I’ve never had a drink, I don’t think there’s anything inherently sinful about doing so, and I don’t begrudge it to my brothers and sisters — so long as they remain sober.
I enjoyed your post.
Thanks guys. Pete, I think it’s fair to say he represents (in one way or another) the majority of our churches. But I think this issue does need to be addressed and talked about biblically/honestly. Many are doing that, and still come down on the side of abstinence (example at James’ blog), but they are characterized by humility and a stronger biblical acumen.
Our policies at NAMB and IMB requiring missionaries to abstain from the use of beverage alcohol is hindering our work in many cases. Creating offense and separation over a non-issue. But that is for another post.
Joe, I agree with everything you said. We are not to add to nor subtract from the scriptures and insisting on total abstinance from alcohol adds to the scriptures, its as simple as that.
I rarely if ever drink alcohol but do like a good cigar now and then. That’s problematic from some Christians even though smoking is mentioned nowhere at all in scripture.
As one poster asked, when do we consider the weaker brother or the impact it may have on our witness among the unsaved and not do these things even though we feel we can do them as per scripture. I kind of have the same question.
As Christians the last thing we’re called to do is to be focused on ourselves and insist on our own rights. We can, however, as you did, insist on a correct reading of the Word.
“I believe the cure for drunkenness is not abstinence or moderation, but the gospel itself.”
Where would you get a crazy idea like that? You must be reading the Message or something. Seriously, I have had a hard time with this. When thinking about alcohol, do I feel that way because that is biblical, or because I grew up so legalistic, and the abistinence view was pounded into my head? Not the only question I have that same debate with, mind you.
I appreciate the concern for your brothers and sisters in Christ. But there is a lot of confusion over what it means to cause someone to “stumble.” Let me pull from a comment I made on Steve’s blog a long time ago.
Rom 14, for example is always brought up. In that context to cause one to stumble was not to frustrate someone, or challenge their perspective, but to encourage someone to go against their conscience, often times back to idolatry. It was, at least, to encourage someone to sin. To live and act without faith. Stumbling has nothing to do with our concept of being “offended.” The closest possible interp. I can biblically agree with is; if my drinking will encourage someone to go against his or her conscience by drinking themselves than I would not drink.
But consider this, the issue in Rom. 14 was meat and drink associated with idolatry. Some want to strip it out of that context. Abstinence from all meat and drink was not the issue, but abstaining from a certain kind of meat and drink. If we allow teetotalers to remove all wine from our tables, why not vegetarians all meat from our tables? What’s the difference?
Check out the material I link to at the end of this post, or read through some good commentaries on the passages in question. It would be very helpful.
Joe~
Great post! I think that this has been an argument among believers for a long time and the only question is, what is the Spirit of God convicting an individuals heart to do? I think that this is a very personal conviction that some may or may not have. With that being said, I fail to understand why someone like Jack Graham would write such a thing about this subject. Is there some underlining objective here that I’m failing to see? I am pleading ignorance on this and just out of curiousity, how is it a mans right to dictate to us what the Spirit of God is telling us to do? Maybe I’m going down the wrong path here with this, but I just feel a bit broken by the fact that this is something that was talked about in BP. Clearly Mr. Graham did not do his research.
And by the way Joe, next time you’re in Louisville let me know and I’ll treat you to a pint of Ale or Lager at any fine Irish establishment of your chosing here in town.
A couple of years ago, while redoing our church constitution and bylaws, the issue of alcohol came up. One woman (who has since left) was adamant that we put a prohibition of alcohol in the covenant. I refused to do that citing just what you’ve pointed to Joe. The last thing I remember saying in the discussion was “do you want a preacher who teaches what the Bible says or are you comfortable with me adding what I feel is right?”
No mention was made of alcohol.
Aren’t we missing the point? The Gospel is about more than what we can do and what we cannot do. It is about the coming of God’s Kingdom on earth and the beginning of Christ’s eternal reign. About becoming new creations–not by the outward control of our behavior but by the renewal of our minds.
“Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees…” The Pharisees were proud of their righteous behavior before men but “their hearts are far from me.”
I fail to see how settling this argument furthers the Kingdom or the transformation of those He calls.
well, everyone’s pretty much said what i would have said… great perspective and well-written; doubt i’d see it on the bp any time soon, though…
Joe,
Providentially, The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary held a forum the day after Graham’s first person came out called “Alcohol and Ministry: A Forum.” It included both Drs. Al Mohler and Russ Moore. While they may not come out exactly where you do, let’s just say that they do not hold the same view as Dr. Graham.
Here is the link: http://www.sbts.edu/resources/audio/
Thanks for pointing that out John, I saw that today. Thanks for the audio link. Checking it out tonight.
For fun check out the archive of resolutions from previous Southern Baptist Conventions, and search the world “alcohol.” All the way back to 1886 through 1988 a steady flow of abstinence was affirmed by the Convention in the form of resolutions. Interesting – it has been almost 20 years since we have made a similar resolution, and there has never been a 20 year gap in our history where we missed ths issue. I have a feeling one’s coming soon.
Thanks for posting this. It seems where I live (in OK) SBC’ers are more apt to take the total abstinence view. It’s nice to have the resources you present in your view to look to especially in regards to what it really means to make a brother stumble.
From the humble viewpoint of a workin’ 23 year old, I’ve done more to flourish relationships (and hence, sharing Christ with people) in having a drink with someone after work than preaching on the evils of alcohol. I think one of the things that we lose track of is that most of the world doesn’t care/doesn’t see it as the issue that some hardcore conservatives make it out to be. Like I said though, this is coming from a youngin’ – I still have lots to learn
Nice title by the way
Brandon gets the credit for the title. Thanks man.
You have to keep in mind that in my context (northern illinois, church plant that is not a “traditional” SBC church) this simply is not an issue for us. In other churches, and in other cultures, approaching the subject has to be done with great care. Not every church will, or should, handle this in the same way. This is a part of my problem with Graham’s article. He wants to set up a universal approach.
Bob, I’m not sure I get where you are going, but if there are people putting stipulations (extra-biblical ones at that) on Christian life, it is a gospel issue. So you are right, it’s more than being about what we do or don’t do.
Did I get you right?
This pulls together all that I believe on this subject but couldn’t formulate into coherent thought. (Not because I was drunk
. . . just couldn’t pinpoint what I was thinking.)
I am enjoying your blog very much.
That looks like a pretty strange comment I made there, but it was actually a trackback from my blog. Thanks for you thoughts on this, Joe. Well done.
Thanks Suzanne. Glad you are here! David, yeah I am trying to find a way of indicating that those are trackbacks. Not sure how yet. I think most will get it.
Joe, this was a fantastic post. I really thought that some of your reasoning from the Old Testament was very convincing. I really pray that the teaching of the Bible will prevail and that the popular teaching on this issue will change in the coming years.
Joe,
I really liked your post and agree with your view. Although the forum at SBTS on alcohol that John D. linked to in his comment did give me pause on certain things. I am interested to hear your thoughts on that forum.
Enjoying your blogs also…
Joe, If you are right and we do make a resolution on this issue in favor of abstinence as the only option I will finally pack up my anuity and go. Why do people like Graham get to post articles like that in the first place? He is the perfect example of how the SBC sits with its eyes and ears covered while screaming nonsense at the world. We should ban together and start a boycott of the Baptist Press.
I met a guy recently who uses alcohol as a litmus test for trust and friendship (that is unless the person is a recovering alcoholic). I think the idea has merit. It is such a stupid issue. I’m going to quit griping now, sorry.
Russ,
Yeah I listened to the audio last night. I have to say it really disappointed me. One the one hand Mohler and Moore were honest about the bad arguments on both sides; from Graham’s position to those who would recklessly throw their beer in someone’s face. I agree with their emphasis on putting the church body first before personal preference.
But they so carefully explain themselves that in the end it boils down to an “abstinence is the only way for Southern Baptists” position. They did not deal with the Bible’s words on wine and strong drink as God’s gifts beyond saying water was dirty and alcohol was therefore a necessity. I thought it was weak overall. I have a lot of thoughts on it at the moment, but am waiting to pull them all together for a future post covering more than this issue.
If a resolution is put up, calling for abstinence, I’ll vote against it. It wouldn’t make me leave though. We are famous for passing ridiculous resolutions. I saw a famous, well-respected pastor at the Convention two years ago vote against a res’ on the HCSB. It was hilarious.
I am just tired of letting them make me look stupid. I’m tired of defending them. I’m getting tired of being associated with them. If that is the approach Mohler is taking then there is not much hope of change. This is not to mention that you can’t take a post with the foreign or north american mission board without signing a pledge to abstain.
Well, I would encourage you to listen to Mohler for yourself. I am not really explaining everything he said. And yeah, the missionary issue is a big deal. I have spoke with several missionaries who say the abstinence policy interferes with ministry. It is a real concern of mine.
Some questions:
Does the youth pastor at your church drink?
Do the volunteer workers in your youth ministry drink?
What would you explain to children and teenagers who come from the “streets” (i.e., home and societal environments that have been largely affected by the use of alcohol in a negative way) that were to ask you (as a pastor or youth pastor) if you drink, too?
Do you feel that any of these questions have a relevant bearing on praxis in youth ministry? Please explain.
Thanks Joe.
It looks like both sides are proof texting a bit.
Considering the harm that alcohol can do or is doing to our society, it seems strange to me that we condemn someone calling for abstaining from something that is not really neccessary to function in todays society.
jvpastors attitude (or my perception of his attitude)is just as extreme in one direction as Grahams is in the other.
As long as we don’t judge in a pharisee like manner, which Jesus holds as the greater sin, (which may be what some feel Graham or the SBC is doing) then we should be free to express our view without fear of breaking fellowship. Do we all have to agree 100% on this issue? I hope not, for my feelings on the issue have changed throughout my walk with Christ.
I also doubt seriously if any one commenting here was raised in a home with a violent alcohol abuser, if so, one might see the issue as a little more black and white. (or lost a loved one due to a drunk driver etc.)
If Graham had written an article on pollution and had advocated that we would be better off not driving cars, would we then state that the Bible says nothing about polluting therefore I can keep on driving my SUV? It is amazing what we can justify and condemn using the Bible isn’t it.
Glenn,
I work with the youth, as do others. Some of us drink occassionally and moderately, some don’t drink at all. Teens are much smarter than we give them credit for. At our church they understand drunkeness is a serious sin, but that drinking is not. When they are 21 they can drink in moderation if they chose to do so. But an adult’s consumption of alcohol does not encourage illegal drinking more than married adults having sex encourages pre-marital sex among teens.
Mr. uhh… “finewhine”. As I explained, at our church we have some former drug and alcohol users/abusers, some did come from abusive homes, and some have felt the effects of drunkeness via the death/destruction of family members. Please try not to presume to know any of us here (including commentors). Let’s all try to be charitable.
The problem is not that Graham wants to abstain, or thinks we should, but that he is suggesting total abstinence is the only godly course of action, and that any other direction is sinful. That is pharisaical, and is why I have addressed it.
My point is not to make a full bown case for the goodness of wine (though I think I can). Others have done that (see suggested material above). I simply want to show that the kingdom ethics, and the power of the Gospel is more brightly displayed through self-control rather than a “hedge of protection.”
“I also doubt seriously if any one commenting here was raised in a home with a violent alcohol abuser, if so, one might see the issue as a little more black and white. (or lost a loved one due to a drunk driver etc.)”
finewhine – my Mother did die in an a car accident involving alcohol, and she spent a large part of her adult life in and out of rehab for drug addiction. Would you like me to make some assumptions about you?
Am I upset, yes, I’m upset the Baptist Press is a promotional tool for fundamentalist ideology rather than a vehicle to promote the kingdom.
I’m upset that because Graham is at a big church in Texas he is given a voice to all baptists. I’m upset that people in the SBC read the crap that he writes and think of him as representative of all baptists, God, and Scripture.
I’m upset that people make assumptions and try to point out hypothetical emotional situations like alcohol abuse, and drunk driving accidents as examples for why abstinence is best. When all esle fails play on someones emotions rather than their intellect?
People who talk sometimes are guilty of lying, in fact some lies result in death. Maybe we should abstain from talking so that no one will be tempted to lie. Maybe we should abstain from eating so that no one will be tempted to overeat and get heart disease. I think Jesus said something about plucking out your eyes, or cutting off your hand if they cause you to sin. Or, was he using hyberpole?
The funny thing about the issue is that the bible is far from silent. Drunkness is a sin, not drinking. It is pretty clear. If a decision by an individual to abstain from alcohol is based on the fact that their parents abused alcohol that is fine, but if they want me to abstain because their parents abused alcohol that is ridiculous. What else did your parents abuse that I should avoid?
In your scenario we should let our emotions make our decisions, which in my opinion is a bad way to make decisions.
jvpastor
So sorry to hear your story. I did not realize I was being emotional, nor did I say I agreed with Dr. Graham, merely that what he was saying is not as detrimental as perhaps how he was stating it.
You and I actually agree, though I feel you may be just as pharasaical (though I should not make any assumptions, forgive me) as Dr. Graham. So if I were a non-drinker you would trust me less? That is as ridiculous as if I were to say I did not trust you if I knew that you were a social drinker.
The whole point of my comment was not that one side was right or wrong, but that both sides have merit, (not to the extent that abstinance is the only answer, but a good alternative) the error is in the arrogance displayed by many who engage in the conversation, myself included.
Relax, mr. jvpastor and have a drink, if you are so inclined, I will think no more or less of you for it, because that will advance the kingdom according to you. (assumption)
This is the most serious issue before us apparently. (another assumption)
Finewhine – you refer to abstinance as a “good alternative”, what does that mean? What is it a good alternative too?
Yes I am suspicious of people who claim to think drinking is fine, but abstain anyway. If it is fine, then why abstain?
Don’t preach at me about arrogance and tolerance and then tell me to relax either. Your first post was patronizing, and full of assumptions. Look at your handle: FINEWHINE. But I’m the one being a pharisee?
I do happen to think it is a serious issue, but obviously from your tone it is beneath you.
Joe;
Thanks for your thoughts and your comments. This is indeed a contentious issue and we must strive for dialogue founded upon Scripture. Alcohol abuse is indeed a danger, but arguing against total abstinence is in no way arguing for the abuse of alcohol. We must realize that while abstinence might be wise, it cannot be presented as the only option and we must allow for those who differ on either side of the issue. We must be careful of going beyond the bounds of Scripture, which both sides have a tendency towards.
May we all strive for the glory of God and the edification of the fellow saints.
Brent
Joe, is it the single malt in my hand or did this conversation get really interesting really quickly? I am always encouraged by the variety within the body of Christ. No one should ever claim that the church is boring. Some churches might be, but not the church.
People are homeless and hurting due to a hurricane.
A “Christian leader” calls for an assassination.
AIDs is an epidemic in parts of our world.
War is raging in Iraq, with no peaceful solution in sight.
People are still starving in Africa.
The divorce rate in Americhristiandom is embarressingly high.
Racism still exists in our free country.
Our economy is held hostage by oil companies and OPEC.
We are destroying our environment with fossil fuels.
You are correct, in the grand scheme of things this subject you are so upset about is worthy of your energy. I would hope whether we have a six pack of coke or bud in our refrigerators that we would truly work together for the furthering of the Kingdom. Wasn’t THAT sort of what Paul was saying?
finewhine – please feel free to introduce yourself. You are welcome here, and we like people to be real.
I think we’ll all agree, the moderattion/abstinence issue is a relatively small one – though it can have major consequences for the kingdom. Let’s plant churches, heal churches, reach the world, serve Christ, etc. But guys like Graham make this into an issue. We address it, and it rightly chaps some of us. It does me. Which is why I waited 24 hours to post a reply. I needed to have the right attitude.
Let’s all stick to the issue, the article, and direct our comments in that direction.
Finewhine – you are missing the point the issue is not alcohol it is the abuse of a pulpit (Graham’s), it is the abuse of the Baptist Press, to spread a misrepresentation of Scripture to support their idealogy.
Abusing scripture is a serious issue. It is a serious issue among many serious issues as you have noted. By the way it looks like you are wasting as much time as I am on this non-issue. No one is forcing you to waste your time commenting while you could be out furthering the kingdom.
Sorry Joe, I made my post before I read yours, I will try and stay on task.
It’s cool. You last words are right on. Steve McCoy has just put up some interaction with the Q&A audio from SBTS on Alcohol and Ministry. Check it out at Reformissionary.
I posted a little there Joe, but reading here I think I will say a little more. The attitude itself is harmful. I tend to be less concerned about the “abuse of scripture” involved. (God — which I assume was the implication — can take better care of himself than I can.) I tend to notice the harm it causes people and relationships.
Both you and Steve have pointed out the harm it can cause as we try to relate with those who are rejecting the things they have seen or heard about Christianity (usually from Christians). Both my wife and I joined with an SBC church at the post-30 stage of life. Neither of us had had any deep sort of connection with this sort of tradition before then. I had spent a lot of years among those with a particularly negative view of Christianity. So I understand from that perspective how and why it is an issue. It’s not about the alcohol. If a friend has a drinking problem, not only is it not a problem, others will try to help him avoid relapses and work to help through any that happen, even if it means they don’t drink when they otherwise would. But when confronted with someone who rejects drinking because they are “Baptist” (or whatever you want to put there) and the door slams shut due to the apparent self-righteous, holier-than-thou attitude. I’m not sure if people are truly aware how repellent it often looks.
But it’s not just damaging opportunities to engage those outside the faith. It damages relationships within the community. I’ve known people who have had long-time close family friends refuse to attend the wedding of a child because the wedding wasn’t Baptist and alcohol would be served at the reception. The distinction between a personal choice to abstain and the message people absorb when told that anything less is a sin creates a different environment and hurts people in ways that should not happen within the body. It can even cause pastors to reject other pastors (from different traditions).
Baptist churches, of course, have lots of extra-biblical traditions, some older and some (like this one) relatively new. (I tend to weigh things against more than 20 centuries of church history when determining their “newness”.) This one though, seems to be actually harmful.
And I guess so I’m not accused of a lack of empathy with those from homes impacted by alcoholism or other forms of alcohol abuse, I’ll mention that I am one of those people who grew up with a childhood that was impacted. I don’t think I’m particularly inclined to share any more at this time in this place. But I haven’t personally known any people with that sort of background who feel the appropriate solution is to force the entire world to stop drinking. Then again, none of the people with that sort of share experience I knew were Baptists. I would speculate that has more to do with it than the childhood experience itself.
I can’t believe the simple (albeit cliche) principle of “What Would Jesus Do?” is lost on men with theological doctoral degress! Jesus drank, made wine, and served it others. How is it that when considering the question at hand — “All verses considered, is alcohol consumption OK?” — the life of Christ doesn’t seem to settle the matter for those who claim to follow Him! It’s like some people are teaching, “Well, so Jesus did it… so what? That doesn’t settle it!” Ugh.
The Jesus of the Bible is the sinless Lamb of God… but aparently isn’t qualified to serve in SBC ministries! I can see it now…
TO: Christ, Jesus
Nazareth, Israel
FROM: SBC NAMB
RE: Ministry Applicaiton Rejection
Dear Jesus,
Thank you for your application to the NAMB. As you are aware, the Bible, and therefore the SBC, sets high standards of living and Christian witness for ministry in the SBC. We are rejecting your application because of your open consumption of alcohol, involvement in manufacture and distribution of alcohol, and your fellowship with so-called godly men who consume alcohol. We strongly urge you to reconsider the Scriptures in this matter. We are confident that, upon examining the Scriptures, you will see that alcohol consumption is not a part of Godly living and certainly not for one who serves the Lord in ministry. Until then, Jesus, we cannot consider your application as your witness does not meet the high standards of Godly living and witness required by the SBC.
Does culture matter? I am just curious, because since the bible says Jesus drank wine, could the reason be that that was all there was? Obviously moderation would then be the only option to keep from sinning.
I assume then that if I were to meet some of you on the street you would be wearing sandals and robes? Would you wash my feet if I came to your home, after all that is what Jesus did?
What would Jesus look like and what would he eat or drink if he came back today in human form? Can we really know for sure?
I believe He drank it on special occasions, following Jewish tradition.
Probably drank it when he ate with people of means at their homes. But when he was with the poor I am sure he drank what they drank. Wine was far more expensive then, than today. Indeed it would be thought of as a blessing, as it was a sign of prosperity.
In fact maybe that is the real problem today is that alcohol is too accessible. Poor people can afford it too readily, which then compounds their tenuous situation, but I digress.(there I go worrying about others, I should mind my own business, because Jesus would)
Again I am not saying that total abstinance is the only answer, just a possible choice for some of us who can’t afford it or don’t have self control. I am sorry that I am not as strong as you JVPastor or whoever else. May God grant me the strength to drink just one.
No one here is arguing that abstinence is bad. Both abstaining and drinking can be for the glory of God. What cannot be for his glory is the “total abstinence” position of Graham which seeks to bind men’s consciences falsely through legalism.
I apologize, it seemed that is what JVpastor is arguing. Since he is not arguing that point then we all agree. Legalism is exactly what Jesus preached against in regard to the pharisees. No need for further comment from me.
Scott M, good insight.
Finwhine – if you don’t want to drink that is cool. It is probably inappropriate of me to make a judgement, but I highly doubt that you think it is ok to drink. It is pretty clear from the tone of your posts that you think abstinance is the only option. Otherwise you wouldn’t say things like this: “I am sorry that I am not as strong as you JVPastor or whoever else. May God grant me the strength to drink just one.”
With every post you defend abstinance as a better option. Noah got drunk, and his son found him naked then went and told his brothers. Noah is not referred to as being wrong – the Son that found him naked is cursed not Noah. (Genesis 9:20-28) Maybe God should be as consistent as the SBC. Or, maybe we make way to much of this issue.
Actually i do partake on rare occasions, but i would never use noah’s drunkenness to defend that right. Now you have devolved to defending drunkenness. Which is all that I have so poorly been trying to state, is lets not elevate either behavior, since cultural traditions and scripture play so heavily on peoples choices.(Scripture having the most weight, if taken in proper cultural context)
So could one still not say considering the outcome that drunk=bad, moderation=ok, not drinking at all=better, at least in that particular instance? Oh yeah and i could say something so kind as “don’t assume to know me or what i would do” or something similarly gracious, but i recognize your right to take what i say and make judgments, which i welcome, and the result of which shows that i haven’t been clear, i simply welcome both views on this issue and find merit on each side, it is the self righteous judgemnetalism, so prevalent on the abstinance side and seemingly creeping into the moderation side that i oppose. (or that i wrongly assumed was present, and i would not have posted again except that i could not let the noah remark go unanswered) If i have to use drunkenness to defend moderation then i cannot defend moderation, but of course we don’t have to go that level. Or do we?
Yeah JV, I am not sure how to interpret your use of Noah. He isn’t condemned in the passage (because a different point is being made), but God does condemn his behavior elsewhere in condeming drunkeness.
“Yes I am suspicious of people who claim to think drinking is fine, but abstain anyway. If it is fine, then why abstain?”
Nice to know that jvpastor distrusts me, since that’s essentially what I said in my previous post.
I don’t drink Diet Coke, either, but I don’t have a problem with those who do. Does that mean people who drink Diet Coke should distrust me? That seems like a silly statement to make.
Finewhine I mistook this comment, “I am sorry that I am not as strong as you JVPastor or whoever else. May God grant me the strength to drink just one” to mean that you prefer abstinance.
Joe,
I just think the Noah story is interesting. Don’t read to much into it. I just find it falling into one of the grey areas Scripture where the story line does not follow our preconceived ideas about God (example Proverbs 31:6-7). I was not intending to use drunkness to defend moderation. I don’t have to defend moderation it is the only reasonable position one can make when reading scripture.
Tim,
You are comparing apples and oranges with the diet coke statement. Has anyone ever been bared from serving with the SBC for drinking Diet Coke? Drinking is an issue that is used to create dividing lines all around us are you seriously trying to say that it is not used this way? It is generally one of the questions asked when someone is ordained. The abstinance side uses it as a test for inclusion all the time. Diet Coke is never used in this way.
You said, Tim, that you don’t intend to ever taste alcohol? Why is that? What is it about alcohol that would make you say you would not even taste it? If you are unwilling to even taste it, but then tell me its ok, i’m left to wonder what exactly you think is ok about it?
Call my cynical, but I stand by my statement that I’m suspicious of people who say it is ok, but that they abstain. To me the message that is being sent is that it really is not ok. What if a non-believer invited you to their house and offered you a glass of wine? Would you say I think drinking is fine, but for personal reasons I abstain? I’m sure that would send a very conflicting message wouldn’t it?
Wow, that is cynical. So, by the same argument, if you knew someone who was single — someone who said they were happy being single and didn’t intend to marry — you’d automatically assume that these people considered sex to be evil, and that they harbored a judgmental attitude toward you, huh (assuming you’re married)? That doesn’t seem to be a very godly attitude to have toward your single brothers and sisters.
I just find it interesting that I say I don’t have a problem with Christians drinking alcohol from time to time, but that’s not good enough for you. You’re assigning all kinds of sinister motives to me and questioning my integrity because I don’t drink myself.
I’ve said enough about this topic. I don’t really care to continue a discussion about this with someone who obviously doesn’t believe what I say, so there’s really no point.
Tim,
I find it interesting that you are not willing to answer the question, but instead divert attention away from the issue, and make it about me and my attitude. That appears to be a conveinent way to dismiss a tough question. What is it about alcohol that would make you decide you would never even taste it?
JV,
I know that some who say, “There’s nothing wrong with it, but I will never drink it” often think it is more godly to abstain. In fact, the wording itself is odd to me. But some who have a more sensitive conscience cannot drink, even though they recognize it to be permissible (or good). Others might not drink it because they don’t like the taste. It’s like trying to get into Jazz or Baroque. You have to understand it a bit, on some level, before you really like it. Kids raised on “soda pop and ritalin” will struggle with apreciating wine. Some ae just uncomfortable because of all the drama in church. So they avoid it.
I guess my point is some will have the wrong attitude, others wont. But at this level of argument, we have settled into a very narrow place that makes discussion hard, and clearly less profitable. :beer:
You are right Joe I run into this comment alot, “I think it is fine for you, and I don’t hold it against you, but I don’t want to participate.” Usually the person is really saying, “I think it is wrong.” I shouldn’t make that judgement about Tim, but I thought it was odd that he doesn’t intend to ever take a drink. This is why I was curious what would lead someone to that place. I think you make a good point and the discussion is probably past the point of profitable, but as long as the SBC uses it to exclude people from the mission field I think it is important to get people to look hard at what drives their position.
By the way, I’m still working on wine. ESB and IPA though I’m down with all day.
JV,
I’m reluctant to address this, because I have a feeling you won’t believe me anyway, but I guess I’m a glutton for punishment. Why don’t I ever intend to take a drink? Because I don’t see how it profits me. Because I don’t want to open myself up to unnecessary temptation and run the risk of becoming an alcoholic. Because my wife and family probably wouldn’t look on it favorably.
Why are those reasons so wrong that you think they jeopardize my integrity?
Tim, I don’t know why you would be afraid to answer. I never said I didn’t trust you personally. I don’t know you Tim. I said I was suspicious of why someone would abstain. You have given a reason for why you abstain and jeopardizing your relationship with your family is probably not a good move.
It really is a self control issue. Alcohol has never hurt anyone, it is has never destroyed a family. It has never caused a car accident. People who could not control themselves cause these problems. They would destroy themselves and their families with something else if alcohol was unavailable. Alcohol is amoral. If you personally know that you don’t have enough self control to take a drink then you should not take a drink.
I’m not sure about your use of “unnecessary temptation” or “profit”, I eat and drink plenty of things that don’t profit me (french fries, cake, ice cream, coffee, coke, etc…). It would be a hard standard to live by if I only consumned what profited me.
I would say alcohol is not a-moral, but actually moral. It is God’s creation, his gift, and therefore something good (not neutral). I know it may sound like nitpicking, but it makes a difference.
Joe,
Great point, I mispoke there. What are your thoughts on ESB’s and IPA’s? They seem to be an acquired taste for most people. To me most stouts are to sweet. I’m not educated on all the differences between a lager, porter, stout, ales. I do know combining Guiness and Bass is a real good idea;)
I prefer Ales and stouts over lagers, no pilsners. I’ll send you an email in a bit with some helpful info/links.
Check out the prayer of St. Brigid at http://erud-awakening.blogspot.com/2005/09/prayer-of-st-brigid.html.
I contains the great line: “I would wish a great lake of ale for the King of Kings;”
I’m about ready to get a Miller High Life out of the freezer (I put it in for around a half hour because I like it cold!).
Another denomination that has had to try to speak circles around Scripture in favor of abstinence is the Assembly of God. In their Bible, something like “Spirit-filled Bible” they have many words to try to explain away Jesus’ miracle in John 2 of changing the water to wine. But God uses us all, in spite of ourselves. We need to speak truth in love at times, then let it go.
Thanks Ted. That’s what I have tried to do here.
Is it just me, or has Larry King had like 5 heart attacks and 5 divorces. I guess that’d be a broken heart for each.