Confession: this is a reactionary post. I am thinking out loud here…
I have grown weary of “tough guy” Christians. Lately I have been hearing and reading tough-guy approaches to life in America that simply do not reflect the attitude and actions of Jesus. Men are writing glibly about their right to kill someone in the name of protection or justice. Don’t misunderstand me. I believe a country needs an active military, that war is sometimes necessary, and that self-defense and the protection of the innocent sometimes demands the use of force. I believe the Constitution allows American citizens to bear arms. In fact, a rifle is resting 10 feet away from where I am sitting at this very moment.
What is bothering me is how some Christians seem to be war-happy, endorsing any war our country is involved in as “just.” I am troubled by the visceral response to evil and violence with vengeance while calling it justice. At this moment, I am frustrated with the Dirty Harry attitude toward violence.
One famous blogger recently said that were he to see Osama Bin Laden at the store he would try to kill him. It would be funny to me if I didn’t think he meant it. It is sad that even in a ridiculously hypothetical situation killing is the course of action for this Christian. Where does this casual, swaggering, tough-guy verbiage come from? Certainly not from Jesus.
I wonder if these guys talk tough because they have never really been a part of violence. The men I know who were formerly violent do not glory in it. The men I know who were formerly real “tough guys,” don’t have an interest in being one any more. Men I know who have killed do not speak or write of it lightly. It is no joke. Killing is an awful thing, even when it is done for the right reasons.
I am guessing, and I could be wrong, that were some of these “Christian” tough guys in a situation that actually required violence or force they would wet themselves. All the talk and the provocative blogs aside, I doubt most would do what they claim. I also wonder if we don’t confuse constitutional rights with Biblical mandates. I wonder, I am not sure, if we synthesize what our Country allows us to do with what God desires of us. This much I am certain of. The tough guy attitude has got to go. It is not humble or thoughtful. It is arrogant and presumptuous.
It seems preferable for the Christian to make peace, and when making peace must come at the cost of violence, that sobriety and humility be its character. That should at least be the tone of our conversation.
I am the Lead Pastor of Redeemer Fellowship; husband to Jen; Dad to Katherine, Elias, Madeline, and Kilian. If you're in town you can probably find me in the local coffee house or running through the neighborhoods.
{ 54 comments }
great word, Joe…thanks for this
I have a friend (a believer) who was in Desert Storm. While protecting the camp, he was forced to kill someone who was attempting to enter their compound. Several years later, he still does not like to talk about it, and is still haunted by it.
I hope I never have to find out what it feels like to take the life of another human being.
I have wielded the sword in defense of this nation, and as a result I have taken the lives our country’s enemies.
My attitude towards life (before doing so) was flippant…
my attitude afterward was not.
90% of those who pose as the ‘angry Christian Rambo’ are indeed usless.
But it is the remaining 10% who give creedence to men who would exercise their wrath in the place of God’s, and in so doing, destroy the credibility of the Church and besmirch the name of Christ.
jl
I also wonder if we don’t confuse constitutional rights with Biblical mandates. I wonder, I am not sure, if we synthesize what our Country allows us to do with what God desires of us.
I’ve not read the posts that you referred to but I have no doubt that what you expressed in the quote above is a major problem in American evangelicalism. Think about all of the boycots, arrogant protesting of various parades, and the way in which “Christian” preachers lambast men and women running for political office whose politics are at odds with their own. The Constitution may give us the right to be obnoxious and contentious, but God does not.
Killing is an awful thing, even when it is done for the right reasons.
I agree with the first half of this. On the second, I wonder who determines which reasons are right. I never knew I was a pacifist before but when I think of the effort that is expended in a country to generate hatred in its citizenship before entering into war, I’m appalled. I guess protecting a country’s sovereignty is a “right reason” but the nation of Israel (God’s people) has spent much of its existence without its sovereignty.
Makes you think…
Bob, Archibald Alexander said something worth noting on this issue. I love his attitude. Check out the quote here.
I daydream of three ends to Osama bin Laden:
1. He has a Damascus Road experience and becomes the Middle East’s Apostle Paul, still on the run from the law, but profitable to the Church.
2. He accepts Jesus Christ as his Savior and is executed shortly thereafter.
3. He is put to death as soon as possible.
Great post, Joe (and a fine example of why I don’t read Phil Johnson’s blog).
I’m not ready to vilify Phil just yet, but I think you’re picking up on the difference between boys and men. The former act and talk as though these matters are the stuff of imaginary, backyard play; the latter know better.
I’ve never killed anyone but I’ve been around plenty of corpses. It doesn’t take many – actually just one – to change one’s mind about the glory of death and killing. There’s something about the look on a suddenly-lifeless face that is haunting. It makes war and killing profoundly sad, albeit necessary at times.
God doesn’t delight in the death of the wicked; maybe we should adopt a similar attitude towards it. It is a horrible, unnatural product of Sin. Nothing to be tossed around glibly.
I’ve been a part of the dialogue at Phil’s site, and I agree with your thoughts. I think Phil is an incredibely sharp individual, and he can be fairly witty, but much of his good message gets lost in immature conduct.
Now, all that business about Phil taking out OBL at Costco should have been taken for what it was…ridiculous hyperbole. Phil is right that some of his readers are way too sensitive, that any use of satire or hyperbole hurts their feelings.
But I’m more aware of the sophmoric fraternity environment that Phil and his buddies promote…I’m just blown away that many of these guys represent institutions like the Grace to You, Master’s College, etc. If I was in oversight of these institutions I would be a bit embarrassed by their blogging interaction. When I think about the caliber and character of the men I sat under in Bible College and Seminary, I could never imagine these leaders ever being so brash and flippant in the arena of debate.
It just tends to make me think that their world is somewhat small and confined, marked by a strong desire to mainly associate with individuals of like mind.
Personally, I like Phil’s “sophomoric humor” better than the sort of gossip you guys are posting. You’re all clicking your tongues like a bunch of old women under hair dryers, but not one person, including Joe, has actually quoted or pointed out anything specific that is sinful or shameful about Phil’s blog.
So you don’t like his “tone.” I’ll bet he wouldn’t like the tone of your comments, either, but he isn’t going to organize a hen party among his commenters to talk about what he doesn’t like about you and try to embarrass you.
You guys are the ones who should be ashamed, not Phil and the people who comment at his blog. I’ve read his blog for weeks, and there is a lot more edifying stuff there than you’ll find in this sort of schoolgirl-chatroom gossip session.
Hey Greg,
Thanks for commenting. Nothing on this blog would qualify as gossip. This is public, and what I am expressing here has already been brought up on his blog in the past – even on the posts in question. His public remarks are open to public evaluation. As are mine. This was not slander, I was not attacking his character. I used Phil as an example of one who publically speaks of violence in a way I believe to be unwise at best, and unChristian at worst. I gave links to his posts, trusting that the few people who read this blog are mature enough to read his words in context and draw their own conclusions. I think that is fair.
I am not trying to embarass Phil, and I highly doubt he has been embarassed about this post, though he knows of it.
The truth is, I agree with Phil on most doctrinal issues, but have grown concerned over how many, including Phil, discuss the topic of violence and/or war.
To be honest Greg, I am ashamed. I am ashamed of my own sin, and my own heart of violence that wants to rise up against the will of God. Of that I daily repent. But I am not ashamed of what I have written here. I think it is fair.
Well said, Joe. And far more gracious than I might have responded.
Joe, I wasn’t speaking of you alone. Several who have left comments here actually boast that they don’t read, and won’t read, what Phil actually said, and then they go on to talk about how shameful his “dirty harry” attitude is anyway.
But what you have posted is wrong, too, and if you’re really not ashamed, you should be. I read phil’s posts; they weren’t anything like you portrayed. In two separate posts he stressed that he was not saying killing OBL would be his first choice. He gave every indication possible that he was exaggerating for humorous effect. He wasn’t arguing FOR killing and violence for their own sake; he was arguing AGAINST total pacifism, and using a deliberately extreme example to make his point.
By contrast, a lot of the comments here seem to serve NO purpose other than cattiness. Sled dog’s smug cracks about the caliber of men at TMS and TMC scrape the bottom of the barrel.
Pat yourselves on your backs for being above it all as much as you like. The holier-than-thou hypocrisy in most of these comments sticks out like a sore thumb.
Joe, FYI, I tried to use your contact form just now and I got an error that said someting about “no input file”. Not sure the thing is working. If you didn’t get anything from me, it isn’t. Anyway I had some questions about 10/11 Theology Pub. Could you drop me a line via e-mail and I’ll e-mail my questions? My e-mail address: My first name followed by at sign followed by nelmezzo.net.
Thx.
So… If you saw OBL in a grocery store, what would you do?
Greg, I don’t see anyone patting themselves on the back here. I am not. In fact I confess my own guilt in this area. I wish you did not sense a “holier-than-thou” attitude. I am simply making assertions and pointing out error.
I am wondering if you go to Grace? It appears that you are blogging close to Sun Valley but not in it? Just wondering, because if you feel like someone is attacking your elder, I get that. As I have said both here and on Phil’s site my problem is with the glib way Christians talk and joke about killing. enough said on my part.
Greg, are you by any chance the same guy who posted this?
Ryan,
Obviously it is a dumb hypothetical situation. It won’t happen. My problem was that even there – the glib talk about killing continued. But if you are wondering? I am not sure. I know how to fight, but I believe I would call the cops and watch him. Maybe I’d follow him. Maybe I’d approach him, try to detain him. The things is, I would not object to someone using force, if necessary, to hold him.
I just hate the careless way some are approaching the subject – especially when the world is watching and often taking notes.
John,
I am pretty sure that is not him. I believe this Greg is married and lives in Southern California.
David,
Thanks for the heads up. I fixed it. Works now. Email on the way.
It’s not a dumb hypothetical. I agree that real tough guys don’t generally talk trash, and that people who see violence don’t glory in it (unless they’re psychotic).
But I got an entirely different vibe from Phil than what you are portraying. Killing a mass murderer is a legitimate use of force. People who would just let him go are foolish.
Look,
The title of his first post is Go Ahead. Make My day.
He later comments on the death of a criminal in the church parking lot by saying, “Sometimes church discipline has to be done the hard way.”
He says the first instinct when seeing OBL is to kill him with a tube of processed meat.
It was not his point that I was primarilly objecting to (read my first comment on his first post) but much of his tone.
Not everything is a joke. My concern is that the Phil Johnson Club tends to pick up where he leaves off and it gets worse. There are far worse examples of what frustrates me. But Phil is a public one that people can see.
So, totally off topic, but was I the only one who found the mental picture of PJ wielding a chub of frozen beef in an offensive fashion to be extremely funny?
Responding to Greg’s initial post:
As Joe stated for himself, I’ve registered my thoughts on Phil’s blog as well. So my thoughts are no secret. Phil knows what I think. And the caliber of men out of GTY or TMC is not being questioned. I believe they are intelligent, desire to know God’s Word, etc. Hey, I was a member at GCC. It’s a theologically solid church. That said…I know a lot of guys out of TMS and TMC. Many are my friends. But if there is one quality that many of them share, it is that they are a bit cocky. That’s been my experience. That doesn’t mean they are all-around mean people. I’m sure they do a lot of nice stuff for others. But I stand by my view that if one of my leaders was writing a blog such as Phil’s, I would talk to him about it. (I actually had a person in my church with an offensive blog that I had to confront). It is in fact my awareness of the sharp caliber of leaders at TMC and GTY that causes me to be surprised by some of the blogging interaction that goes on!
I agree with Joe that Phil sometimes communicates (IMO) in a somewhat flippant attitude in his interaction. I believe Phil actually relishes that role. He’s been honest to say that he’s polemic by nature, referring to himself as a “provocateur” and a “gadfly” in his profile. As long as Phil chooses to use “extreme examples” (your words) to make his points, he will often find himself hit with extreme reaction. That’s simple physics.
Not everything is a joke.
I’ve seen violence first hand, as a small child. Violence is no joke. But at the same time, it’s part of life, and I’m not going to get bent out of shape at a little light-heartedness. I’m not going to live like that.
My concern is that the Phil Johnson Club tends to pick up where he leaves off and it gets worse. There are far worse examples of what frustrates me.
That I agree with. He has a following, and he does throw them red meat.
But I think this latest example isn’t really a good example of him doing it. He was addressing a legitimate, relevent question. It could be a matter of perception; maybe tomorrow I’ll wake up and take umbrage with it. But today Phil didn’t strike me as offensive.
Greg, chill out. Joe isn’t saying this with any animosity. I think it’s a legitimate point and a worthy discussion.
And this is anything but gossip. Usually when one’s emotions get the best of them they start throwing out words that don’t fit the situation and context in order to make it sound really serious. Your comments are riddled with ‘heat,’ and that isn’t helping anything. Joe’s responses have almost been too kind.
And you said that he should be ashamed of what he wrote? For real Greg, you need to back off a bit. Silly.
And yes, Kurt, I thought the beef chub thing was funny. Actually, for a brief moment, the comments thread at Phil’s website started to almost sound like the BHT! (I’m sure they won’t appreciate that) Imagine the fun they could have if they would just allow themselves…
Joe… This was a gutsy post, no pun intended. I think that the important balance for us to strike is that we must understand that violence is a necessary evil. There are times that it is unavoidable, but I do not think that it should be glorified. I think that you made some good points about “tough guys.”
Scott, YOU’RE a necessary evil. Sorry, I just felt very compelled to say that.
Steve, I’m troubled by the fact that you would joke about pinging a brother with a glib insult, and that you would find your enjoyment in that. What kind of testimony is this to a watching world? And how is this morally different from jokes about physical violence?
Is the world really watching? My impression was that it was just us bloggers with too much time on our hands. Another impression- the world doesn’t pay attention to or even notice us much except when our “spokesmen” have Judgment Eruptions in the media.
Joe, if Greg is right, may I post some advertisements before the watching world? What a deal.
Man, if Greg is right, then I am a gossipy school girl. LOL
To show I am not overly sensitive… To Greg! :beer:
Greg,
There is a world of difference between my jabbing a close friend in ministry and what PhiJo did. One is between friends, the other is between enemies. The fact that you think they are similar because they are both humor shows why you came on this blog with such rancor.
Joe,
Perhaps you could extinguish the flaming arrows of the Fiery One’s bloggyguard by creating some artwork that shows you in gossipy schoolgirl attire. Go ahead, tease us.
I’d like to see that Joe.
Joe, thoughtful post. Cool pic also.
Thanks man. The pic is a cap from the movie Green Street Hooligans.
Well, I had to add my thoughts to everyone else’s. The following is what I posted in response to another blog:
Well, I have to disagree with the article. Wasn’t it God himself that used the entire nation of Israel, time and time again, to ‘cleanse’ the land? They didn’t just pray for their enemies and oppressors and prophecy against them; they girded up their swords and slaughtered everyone….including the women, children, and even their animals!
Sure, I agree that Jesus brought about a new covenant, and that he was also overcoming evil with good. I also agree that we SHOULD pray for our enemies and those who persecute us, but I cannot believe for a second that our heavenly Father would want us to just stand by and do nothing about thugs like: Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, and if I’m wrong then as a Law Enforcement Officer, am I supposed to use deadly force or otherwise to stop a rapist, murderer, molester, etc??? According to the article I would guess that I’m just supposed to hope that God intervenes as I stand there and verbally protest like the Prophets of old.
I for one have no problem standing up, and using force or the threat of force, to protect the innocent, oppressed, or abused. To be honest, I enjoy it! I can’t think of a better way to help my community! It reminds me of a quote that I created, “WE ALL HAVE TO DIE SOME DAY. I JUST HOPE I DIE HELPING SOMEONE ELSE!”
Greater love hath no man than this, to lay down his life for his friend. While I would agree that we need to allow God to do his part, and that we also need to be in the Word and on our knees in prayer, I would also say that Faith without works is dead, and I for one believe strongly that we owe it to our fellow man to aid him in his struggle against murderous dictators, warlords, and demagogues!
Marc,
I am not sure your comment here is relevant to my post. I am not advocating pacifism, nor am I opposed to the use of force when necessary. My problem is with the way some pseudo-tough guy Christian talk about violence. Re-read my post and my comments, and I think you will find I am in essential agreement with what you say here. So your comments may prove confusing to others who come into this conversation late. You say you disagree with the “article” and that this ‘article” suggests not getting involved – I am guessing you are referring to the original, not mine. But this is confusing as well. Some clarification would be helpful.
Thanks for visiting my blog and commenting on the posts. I appreciate it.
Yeah, i was responding to another article at the time.
It sounded like to me, according to all of your other posts, that you were advocating a ‘nicer’ response from us Christian males instead of the more violent or aggressive repsonse that you seem to so often see now-a-days. ???? Have i missed the mark?
War is hell, always has, always will be, and I can’t stand looking at death and dead bodies. Being shot at scares the carp out of me and sometimes cause me to do nothing more than hug mother earth. However, I think we have pacified the American Male into believing that we are supposed to just be nice guys; and we’ve done it even worse to the Christian Male… i think.
Anyway, love discussing this.
You know, I must admit that I would have probably been more like Peter than Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane (LOL, that is if I wouldn’t have just tucked tail and ran). And the physical, and spiritual restraint that Christ showed was HUGE. However, it seems that his situation was truly unique and that he was obviously accomplishing something that could only be done if he was actually killed, thus the command to put away the sword.
I do see the relevance of being more Christ-Like and less ‘Rambo-Like’ in our response to the world and its actions toward us, but in the words of a famous song, “Sometimes you have to fight to be a man.” However, I also agree that most of these guys running around talking about how tough they are, or bragging about how many people they’ve killed, are either bald-faced liars, or are really messed up in the ‘brain-housing group’. Being exposed to death and destruction typically brings about the opposite response to me; I want less and less to do with it. It always reminds me just how vulnerable and frail I am, and how much of a ‘vapor’ we really are…….here today and gone tomorrow. But sometimes, it’s good to be reminded of that; it helps keep things in perspective.
Life is precious, very precious. That is why I believe so strongly in removing those from society that so easily snuff out or destroy others’ lives without so much as a passing thought; like crushing a spider under their shoe.
Did the early Christians fight Rome while being led to the Coliseum? Did they mount an armed revolt to save themselves and/or their loved ones? Obviously not, but if they would have, I sure wouldn’t have thought any less of ‘em or faulted them for it. How can you fault a person for fighting and defending their own life? On the other hand, I have to say that they are probably a lot ‘tougher’ than I’ll ever be, to be able to calmly walk into that den of torture without so much as apparently lifting a finger in their own defense.
Still pondering……….
Marc,
Thanks for the clarification. I am against the sissification of men. I too see that as a problem. My frustration (and the subject of this post) is with the attitude many Christians take toward the topic of violence.
Only a REAL man can use the word “sissification” without flinching.
Guys and the Kindhearted Joe,
I’m simply sick of your kind of slander. People wonder what fires TMC/TMS guys while they continue harassing them for all the public to see. I am also sick of the ever-so-pious “I agree with the doctrine… it’s just that his heart isn’t where mine is”. I am 19 years old, and I clearly recognize my tendencies toward arrogance. I should hope that I apty put the reigns on that, much as you people seem to think you perfectly do. I know I’m sounding offly rude and cocky… I just wish you could understand all the slander about anything associated with John MacArthur here lately. I’m sure Phil has friends who’ve been in war as well, and I’m sure those friends probably love reading his blog. The fact is: you, Joe, chose someone to pick on publicly without any reason for doing so. There is a feeling of self-accomplishment, I guess, when someone can look to a popular and wellknown person and say, “You’re arrogant!” Please… stop it. Look at what Phil is trying to point out and stop finding ways to accuse him. It’s ridiculous.
I’ll say this and then I’ll stop: it is utterly prideful and self-seeking to generalize all TMC/TMS students. You are generalizing even when you say “most” of them are cocky. Most people would probably think you were cocky too if these same accused students were playing the fault-finding game with others. I know many TMS guys and talk to them here at the school and at church, and there are a large number of them who are quiet, meek, and just plain godly guys. I’m sorry to post this ranting comment, Joe, but your gossip (and yes, that’s what it is) is simply sickening to see.
God bless, and please think about your own hearts in all of this…….
Adam,
As stated before, there is no gossip going on here. No one is being slandered. Phils public comments have been used in another public conversation concerning the attitude and tone. Phil’s post was simple the most recent example of the attitude, thogh obviously not the worst. I have dealt with a problem that I continue to run into (flippancy toward the topic of violence), and I have confessed that sin myself even in these comments. So there is no sense in which I believe myself to be better than anyone else.
Take your own advice brother. If you believe false judgment is wrong, watch yourself. There has been no self-congratulating here. But here’s how I see even your comment. You are making a judgment based on what you see and speaking passionately about it. Do you feel bad? My guess is no. I have done the same thing.
If you want to address me and my specific words, please do so. I am always ready to evaluate my thoughts/words when someone wants me to consider another perspective. Really. But the hostility coming from your comments gets in the way. The few people who have come on here to flame me have not dealt with my message, but only sought to defend Phil.
Adam
It wasn’t Joe who made any mention of TMC/TMS/GTY. It was me. Joe has been consistent to say that his bone of contention is simply a flippant attitude towards violence. I don’t know Joe from Adam, but I can say he’s been consistent.
It is true, I certainly do not know the entire student body of TMC/TMS, so it would be wrong for me to label and over-generalize. But I do know that, in my experience, most of the individuals (say 80%) I have dealt with in ministry who have come through the Masters schools, to be rather annoying and difficult to work with. The main problem I have faced is that they truly struggle working with anyone who doesn’t perfectly fit a certain mold. I’ve been in ministry for 22 years, and this has been my consistent experience. It’s just my professional opinion. And if you find that kind of opining to be slanderous, then Phil and everyone else ought to shut down their blogs.
Mr. Thorn,
Hmmm, I thought I was talking about your ‘raised questions’ on all three of my posts. Jesus’ life on earth did mostly show a ‘non-violent’ approach (I guess except for the whole marketplace thingy) but he is the very WORD of God, Old Testament included. And he stated that he came to fulfill it, not abolish it.
Should we feel bad for acting violently towards another, or possibly killing them, if we are justified in our actions?
I know this guy you quoted said rather glibly that he’d kill Osama, but is there anything wrong with actively seeking out justice on a person who has been responsible for the murder of thousands of innocent, ‘non-combatant’ lives?
I believe that there should be sincere sorrow in the fact that his soul would be lost for eternity, (or any lost soul for that matter) and even God himself makes it clear in places like Ezekialand others that he hates the death of the wicked and wishes that all would come to repentance; but isn’t there also a point where God himself says that he turns them over to a reprobate mind and they trade the truth for a lie and are the cause of their own destruction for lack of repentance?
I have not taken part in taking another human life very often, but even the first time was enough. There is a huge battle that takes place within the mind of justifying your actions. While I am glad that they did not kill me or my fellow ‘jarheads’ and feel good about ridding the world of ‘evil’, I also realize the complete and utter finality of their destruction and most certain eternal seperation from the Father.
Would I say, “I’d do it all over again given the same circumstances,” yes…I would. Does it bring joy to my heart, of course not. But I also did not, and still do not, have any problem with stating that sometimes violence is necessary and has to be spoken of ‘matter of factly’ and openly.
To be more honest and transparent than perhaps I should: Part of my hardest problem is trying not to become callous towards my ‘enemy’ and feeling nothing about their demise. Sometimes I have the attitude of, “Well, so what. They deserved it. They’re the ones who made the choice to be evil and hurt others, so that’s what they get. Good riddance; the world’s better of without them.”
Maybe we are hashing over the same ideas and I’m ‘kicking a dead horse’ here, but I enjoy mulling this over with you and others. I’m not sure I’ll ever come to ‘terms’ completely with this, but only time will tell.
My last comment: I thank God that we have seminaries like TMS and colleges like TMC, where the biblical training is simply amazing. Many people don’t like them because they stand strong doctrinally, but–again–I thank God for these kind of people… they are a rare find today. It sounds to me like you want to “mold” people into your more open views, excluding those who desire a stronger stance than you have. Or, perhaps you have had bad experiences with certain students. Now that I’ve calmed down a bit, I’m just asking you: don’t make the kind of generalizations that truly, more than anything, really do cause division in God’s body of believers. These schools are proclaiming truth, so perhaps you should overlook a few rigid students that may claim TMS/TMC and thank God as well for the stance that these school take… rather than slandering them by only speaking about those few, odd students. I think we would all appreciate that.
By the way, Phil made a disclaimer on his site that he was not claiming to speak for anyone else but himself on that blog. It was severely misleading to “wonder” what all the higher-ups in his ministry thought about his blogging. He made the disclaimer for a reason; and by ignoring it, you HAVE slandered. Someone should defend Phil (though he does a pretty job of that himself); to be honest, he at least seems to study and really have a grasp on things. He also has a sense of humor… something which certain forms of piety often spurn. See you around the blogosphere…
(Apologies to Joe for taking up space in this comment thread. I think his original post is a solid, clear, level-headed response to an issue he is concerned about. As most bloggers fear, the comment thread can often take on a life of it’s own, and the original topic of discussion is essentially lost.)
Hey Adam,
I certainly don’t desire to get you worked up about all this. Please realize that blog comments (as well as email) are some of the worst places to communicate. It’s just too easy in trying to make a point to step on toes. I obviously stepped on yours by making an overly generalized comment. In response, you’ve stepped on mine by making assumptions about the openess of my doctrine (which are inaccurate). Just so you know, I don’t believe TMC/TMS ought to be shut down or anything. I have interacted with a few of the profs and they are incredibly godly men (Halstead and Mackey for instance). TMS/TMC is known for bull dog tenacity when it comes to doctrine. Scripture calls for us to contend for the faith, and so we must.
But I am also bull-doggish in another area: I am extremely wary of a type of wholesale loyalty to ANY school, church, or ministry organization; a loyalty that will not permit individuals from examining those institutions with a critical eye towards said organization. Every religious institution has faults. Please note my attitude isn’t necessarily towards the institution, but towards loyalty that goes beyond reason. I strongly believe that it is possible to make idols out of theology, pastors, and churches.
And as far as Phil goes, I am not worried one bit that he needs or even desires defending! As I stated above, I think he loves the environment that is “the blogosphere.” He is very skilled with the written word, and blogging allows him voice. Good for Phil!
Truly these thoughts are not written with any rancor or desire to stir up. Their just my thoughts!
Joe,
Thought you might be interested in a post at my blog about how the attitude you’re talking about affects doctrinal discussions of any kind. I’d be interested to hear your comments, as well as those of your readers.
Thanks!
Hey man. I will check it out tonight after Theology Pub. Thanks for visiting.
So Joe, I’m curious, after all this “debate” above, have you changed any of your thinking or beliefs on your original post?
Also, what’s your ‘bottom-line’ on this. Say for instance, what should our response be hypothetically speaking, when confronted with the reality of having to possibly assault another or end a human life?
It seems that you are pretty much saying that as Christians we shouldn’t be so ‘flippant’ or ‘nonchalant’ about it and consider the cost before conducting ourselves in such a manner.
Marc,
My thinking has not changed on this, in fact I think some have missed my point. You have summarized some of my thoughts well, and I would add that war/violence is sometimes necessary.
I just believe that we as Christians shouldn’t pretend to be “tough guys.” Some of us were before conversion, some of us never were. But the tough guy mentality is worldly, lacks biblical compassion, mercy, and for most it is fake. It does not reflect the character of Christ.
Bottom line: If a woman was being raped, an innocent being beaten, etc. I believe I would step in and do whatever I could to stop it. That may mean violence. Violence is sometimes necessary. My concern has tbeen with men’s attitudes toward violence in general.
Well, if what you say isn’t true then those of us with a conscience wouldn’t still ‘feel’ bad after we’ve smacked somone around or stand over their lifeless corpse; even though the action on our behalf was completely justified. Weird eh? I mean hypothetically speaking, you wouldn’t think that you’d ever ‘feel’ bad for beating up some child rapist or other such ‘scum’, but I’ve found that I still do care about what was done.
You’ve made a good point man, and this was an oustanding topic!
Blessings
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