Blessings

My thinking has not changed on this, in fact I think some have missed my point. You have summarized some of my thoughts well, and I would add that war/violence is sometimes necessary.

I just believe that we as Christians shouldn’t pretend to be “tough guys.” Some of us were before conversion, some of us never were. But the tough guy mentality is worldly, lacks biblical compassion, mercy, and for most it is fake. It does not reflect the character of Christ.

Bottom line: If a woman was being raped, an innocent being beaten, etc. I believe I would step in and do whatever I could to stop it. That may mean violence. Violence is sometimes necessary. My concern has tbeen with men’s attitudes toward violence in general.

Also, what’s your ‘bottom-line’ on this. Say for instance, what should our response be hypothetically speaking, when confronted with the reality of having to possibly assault another or end a human life?

It seems that you are pretty much saying that as Christians we shouldn’t be so ‘flippant’ or ‘nonchalant’ about it and consider the cost before conducting ourselves in such a manner.

Thought you might be interested in a post at my blog about how the attitude you’re talking about affects doctrinal discussions of any kind. I’d be interested to hear your comments, as well as those of your readers.

Thanks!

Hey Adam,

I certainly don’t desire to get you worked up about all this. Please realize that blog comments (as well as email) are some of the worst places to communicate. It’s just too easy in trying to make a point to step on toes. I obviously stepped on yours by making an overly generalized comment. In response, you’ve stepped on mine by making assumptions about the openess of my doctrine (which are inaccurate). Just so you know, I don’t believe TMC/TMS ought to be shut down or anything. I have interacted with a few of the profs and they are incredibly godly men (Halstead and Mackey for instance). TMS/TMC is known for bull dog tenacity when it comes to doctrine. Scripture calls for us to contend for the faith, and so we must.

But I am also bull-doggish in another area: I am extremely wary of a type of wholesale loyalty to ANY school, church, or ministry organization; a loyalty that will not permit individuals from examining those institutions with a critical eye towards said organization. Every religious institution has faults. Please note my attitude isn’t necessarily towards the institution, but towards loyalty that goes beyond reason. I strongly believe that it is possible to make idols out of theology, pastors, and churches.

And as far as Phil goes, I am not worried one bit that he needs or even desires defending! As I stated above, I think he loves the environment that is “the blogosphere.” He is very skilled with the written word, and blogging allows him voice. Good for Phil!

Truly these thoughts are not written with any rancor or desire to stir up. Their just my thoughts!

By the way, Phil made a disclaimer on his site that he was not claiming to speak for anyone else but himself on that blog. It was severely misleading to “wonder” what all the higher-ups in his ministry thought about his blogging. He made the disclaimer for a reason; and by ignoring it, you HAVE slandered. Someone should defend Phil (though he does a pretty job of that himself); to be honest, he at least seems to study and really have a grasp on things. He also has a sense of humor… something which certain forms of piety often spurn. See you around the blogosphere…

Hmmm, I thought I was talking about your ‘raised questions’ on all three of my posts. Jesus’ life on earth did mostly show a ‘non-violent’ approach (I guess except for the whole marketplace thingy) but he is the very WORD of God, Old Testament included. And he stated that he came to fulfill it, not abolish it.
Should we feel bad for acting violently towards another, or possibly killing them, if we are justified in our actions?
I know this guy you quoted said rather glibly that he’d kill Osama, but is there anything wrong with actively seeking out justice on a person who has been responsible for the murder of thousands of innocent, ‘non-combatant’ lives?
I believe that there should be sincere sorrow in the fact that his soul would be lost for eternity, (or any lost soul for that matter) and even God himself makes it clear in places like Ezekialand others that he hates the death of the wicked and wishes that all would come to repentance; but isn’t there also a point where God himself says that he turns them over to a reprobate mind and they trade the truth for a lie and are the cause of their own destruction for lack of repentance?
I have not taken part in taking another human life very often, but even the first time was enough. There is a huge battle that takes place within the mind of justifying your actions. While I am glad that they did not kill me or my fellow ‘jarheads’ and feel good about ridding the world of ‘evil’, I also realize the complete and utter finality of their destruction and most certain eternal seperation from the Father.
Would I say, “I’d do it all over again given the same circumstances,” yes…I would. Does it bring joy to my heart, of course not. But I also did not, and still do not, have any problem with stating that sometimes violence is necessary and has to be spoken of ‘matter of factly’ and openly.

To be more honest and transparent than perhaps I should: Part of my hardest problem is trying not to become callous towards my ‘enemy’ and feeling nothing about their demise. Sometimes I have the attitude of, “Well, so what. They deserved it. They’re the ones who made the choice to be evil and hurt others, so that’s what they get. Good riddance; the world’s better of without them.”

Maybe we are hashing over the same ideas and I’m ‘kicking a dead horse’ here, but I enjoy mulling this over with you and others. I’m not sure I’ll ever come to ‘terms’ completely with this, but only time will tell.

It wasn’t Joe who made any mention of TMC/TMS/GTY. It was me. Joe has been consistent to say that his bone of contention is simply a flippant attitude towards violence. I don’t know Joe from Adam, but I can say he’s been consistent.

It is true, I certainly do not know the entire student body of TMC/TMS, so it would be wrong for me to label and over-generalize. But I do know that, in my experience, most of the individuals (say 80%) I have dealt with in ministry who have come through the Masters schools, to be rather annoying and difficult to work with. The main problem I have faced is that they truly struggle working with anyone who doesn’t perfectly fit a certain mold. I’ve been in ministry for 22 years, and this has been my consistent experience. It’s just my professional opinion. And if you find that kind of opining to be slanderous, then Phil and everyone else ought to shut down their blogs.

As stated before, there is no gossip going on here. No one is being slandered. Phils public comments have been used in another public conversation concerning the attitude and tone. Phil’s post was simple the most recent example of the attitude, thogh obviously not the worst. I have dealt with a problem that I continue to run into (flippancy toward the topic of violence), and I have confessed that sin myself even in these comments. So there is no sense in which I believe myself to be better than anyone else.

Take your own advice brother. If you believe false judgment is wrong, watch yourself. There has been no self-congratulating here. But here’s how I see even your comment. You are making a judgment based on what you see and speaking passionately about it. Do you feel bad? My guess is no. I have done the same thing.

If you want to address me and my specific words, please do so. I am always ready to evaluate my thoughts/words when someone wants me to consider another perspective. Really. But the hostility coming from your comments gets in the way. The few people who have come on here to flame me have not dealt with my message, but only sought to defend Phil.