C.S.A. The Movie

Ken,

Thanks for visiting. I explained that e-slave page is a front page through which you click to get to the main CSA Movie site. And I said it was offensive. The trailer, and info on the film, can be found on the main site. The whole should be offensive. Our history often times is.

You can get some info on the movie at IMDB here CSA The Movie.

No problem Ken. I sometimes do the same thing at other blogs.

Wow, all I can say is ‘wow’. This is the kind of thing that our country definitely does not need. Talk about slander, hatred, and racism. What is Mr. Lee saying? So now just because I’m a white male in America I’m automatically a racist and naturally I wish that the South would have one the Civil War?
You can rest assured that my hard earned dollars will not be used to watch this movie or support someone like Spike Lee who is one of the biggest racists I know and does nothing to bring this country closer to unification and the end of racism.

I also think it’s worth discussing how we talk about history and race. Can we do it in a way that is both honest and open? Is it possible to talk about something like racism/slavery without creating greater division? If so, how?

Of course movies can create tension, but more often the greatest fallout is merely from critics. Example: I am not convinced that The Passion of the Christ hurt Jewish/Christian relations, nor that it resulted in anti-semitism and violence against Jews.

We cannot overlook the continued racism found in this country. I’ve received emails from thoughtful baptist pastors in the South in recent months, and they have assured me it’s alive and well down there. It is up where I live too.

Because that’s true, we get movies like this. Is it helpful or harmful? I think both. Surely it isn’t all fair, or maybe not even mostly fair. But we get the chance to interact on issues the culture will surely be discussing. Why do we freak when some in our culture say things outta whack? Let’s find this as a great way to walk in someone’s shoes for a minute (even if only perceived shoes) and get a chance to dialogue with those who need Christ.

I can’t speak for Steve, but I do not “freak” when I hear lies, untruths, etc. being told. I address them (or I try to). Especially when people are not out to deceive, but really see something from a different perspective.

Russ, let me respond to your earlier comment more specifically:

You have a a good attitude approaching something you seem to feel strongly about. Very cool.

You said, “I can’t believe you imagine there is any attempt at fairness in this movie… I can tell this is nothing more than an agenda wrapped in a movie.”

Well, I don’t expect it to be “fair,” if by fair you mean sympathetic to both sides. But I do not believe the man is lying or trying to deceive people. And of course it is an agenda. It is a social/political mockumentary. I think the agenda is admitted to on the front end by virtue of the film’s form.

You said the films looks like it has “An agenda of non-truth and completely false view of history.”

Of course it has a false view of history – it is an alternate history that never happened. “What if the south would have won?”

You then said, “I despair that this movie will… make this an even more contemptuous subject… I just don’t see this movie adding anything positive to the discussion.”

That’s valid man. Maybe the movie itself doesn’t contain anything helpful in it. Maybe it does. But whether it adds anything positive to the discussion depends on us, at least in some measure.

I see, well I’ll try and figure out how to link Mr. Peterson’s thoughts then, ’cause I think they are well worth reading.
I think this is it: http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=27109

In addition to his comments I would ask, what good can come from this film? I believe that it will only foster more anger and violence from the very few in the black community, who are just looking for one more reason to hate ‘the white man’, and will also only foster more anger and violence from the very few in the white community, who are just looking for one more reason to hate ‘the black man’.

BTW, I just read the Peterson article and I agree 100% that reparations are a really, really bad idea.

Joe, LIke the others, all I can say is “WOW!” Only in America will one find such revisionist history! I agree that we need a national conversation on race relations, but it cannot be based on such misinformation. Though intentionally satirical, it is evident that Spike Lee is ignorant of the real reasons behind the “war between the states.” Men like Lee and Jackson were honorable, and were not fighting for the right to own slaves, but rather, for state’s rights, which was the central issue behind the war that is conspicuously absent on this website. On the other hand, few such as Lee make the effort to actually investigate Lincoln’s view of African Americans. Should they ever stumble upon what he actually said, they would be shocked!
Admittedly, I may be a bit biased here as a “southern boy.” But honestly, if we are going to have an honest conversation about race, it has to be based on an honest understanding of history! I deplore racism in all its forms. My home state of South Carolina is equally guilty of revising history by flying the confederate battle flag over the capital to protest desegregation (not the original intent of the battle flag!), and only recently lifted their state ban on interracial marriage. But these vices were not the result of a confederate view of government.
Honestly, I believe the Union victory in this war was God’s judgement upon the south for allowing slavery to continue. Nevertheless, we do need to understand that southerners weren’t the only guilty party on the race issue. And racism during the civil war could accurately be traced all the way to the Lincoln White House!
OK, I”m off my soap box now. Off to make some grits and sweet tea! :)

Ok, these are my last comments.

Joe,
I really do appreciate your attitude in discussing this. When I said this movie has “an agenda of non-truth and a false view of history” I was not speaking to the satirical nature of the film itself, but the assumptions that are being held that drive it, i.e. basically what Joel said. I don’t feel this is the place to belabor that point.

Steve,
You were the one that introduced “freak out” to the discussion. Either I misunderstood what you meant by it, or you misunderstood what I meant by it, or you remain eerilily silent when confronted with something not true. I doubt it is the latter. Anyway, I’ve had my say. Thanks for the discussion. Enjoy the movie!

I used to have a really naive view of the Civil War. The good North fought to free the slaves from the Bad South. Then I started reading history and that view was shattered quickly. I got to a point where my view was something like: the war was about many things, but not really about slavery.

Howevever, I’ve come back around to a view where I believe that the war was indeed chiefly about slavery. Now, I have no illusions that the war was about the noble non-racist North vs. the dastardly South. I also know that Lincoln himself was, by any modern standard, a man of many racist beliefs (as were most Northerners).

But I do believe that the war was chiefly about slavery. Yes, it was also about States’ Rights. But why was it about States’ Rights? It was about States’ Rights to slavery (and to expand slavery) under the US constitution.

The US constitution would never have seen the light of day as a ratified document had its framers not codified slavery in it. But from the founding on, there was a clash of strong anti-slavery sentiments and strong pro-slavery sentiments in the Union. Everytime a territory was ready to join the Union, the slavery issue reared its head. The non-slavery states didn’t want another slave state (they already were having enough trouble against Southern control of Congress). Of course the slave states wanted another slave state. Most of the time, at least at the congressional level, the ethical problems of slavery were entirely lost in the political jockeying.

Further, there were economic issues. But again, these were economic issues surrounding slavery. It was economically beneficial to the North to be against slavery. It was economically potentially ruinous for the South should slavery be abolished. Yes, economics. But slavery at the heart of the economics.

So actually, I believe that was slavery was the chief issue driving all the other issues that lead to the war. Thus I do not agree that the makers of this film (it’s not Spike Lee) are misconstruing what the war was about. At least I couldn’t make that judgment from the trailer.

I see this film as a crass, but valid attempt to pose THE great counterfactual of American history. To me, the very act of posing this counterfactual, means that they a have gotten something deeply right about our history. Yes, the South fought for State’s Rights. Yes, you could argue that the Southern states may have had the right to even secede. But all of this was to preserve slavery and the honor of the slave states. And if the war had been won by the South, who knows how much longer America would have continued with slavery. Lee might still have freed his slaves at the end of his life. Stonewall Jackson might never have had a slave. Many relatively honorable men might have tried to be honorable toward their slaves according to their understanding.

But slavery would have continued to exist and that was what the South was chiefly fighting for. States’ Rights? The guarantor of slavery. The constitution? The guarantor of slavery. In fact the South would never have “lost” had it not attempted armed secession, since the legal picture was entirely in favor of the South. The issue ended up being settled violently. Paradoxically, the final outcome for us all was better than had there been no war. Had there been no war, there was no legal way to end slavery. Slavery was ended by brute force and that’s the only way it ever could have happened.

To our common American shame (and there are very few “good guys” here, certainly the North was not a “good guy”), even after we managed to get rid of slavery, the nation continued with the attitudes that legitimated slavery (White superiority) for a long, long time.

The makers of this film understand those realities.

Joe writes, “As far as the few hateful white and black people, I doubt this movie will elicit [sic] more anger from them. It will simply be another excuse to continue in ignorance.” “Few”? Joe, I think this is quite an understatement. There are A LOT of these folks of all colors. Having lived in Alabama, California, and Texas, I cannot help but think this will be extremely detrimental to race relations. As the above comments note, Spike Lee is a bigot. I would have a hard time choosing between his flick and a Michael Moore documentary.

BTW, this coincides with Louis Farrakhan’s march on D.C. in order to exploit the tragedy of Katrina. He is now saying that the government bombed the levees of New Orleans in order to destroy black homes so that the city can be rebuilt as a “white city.” Get the full story here.

Uh, I need books too! (Don’t say it Joe.)

Joe, this thread is an exercise in seeing the difference between a culture war warrior who works to squash sin with a heavy, condemning hand and a culture missionary who knows the times and observes the sin and engages the culture in order to work for redemption. The former may see a “victory” in which the culture will not actually change, but the movie (for example) will be loudly denounced and smiles will come when the box office if take is small. But those same warriors don’t seem to see that these aren’t real victories, but ways to further isolate some in the culture from the real redemption that can be found through engaging culture instead of scolding it.

Joe, I’ll start with one book, possibly the best single volume history of the Civil War. It does a good job covering background history, social issues, economics, etc., but also does well with narrative history.

It’s “Battlecry of Freedom”, by James McPherson, one of the deans of Civil War history. A lengthy read, but very well written and paced, and given the complexity of the history, it’s actually quite concise.

PS. If you ever want to let yourself in for a real treat, you could read the 3 volume narrative history by Shelby Foote. He’s a great writer and storyteller. Not so strong on causes, background etc., but it’s a truly gripping narrative of the war. He writes from a somewhat pro-Southern vantage point (his sympathies are with Southern military prowess and he’s a Southerner), but he is quite fair in his depiction of the North, too.

“Potential Benefit?” I don’t know, I mean come on. Does anyone out there (other than nutcases and hate-mongers) really believe in the ‘benefits’ of slavery? Weren’t there hundreds of thousands of Americans that died fighting against the South? Seems to me that there were plenty of upstanding citizens willing to ‘put their money where their mouth’ was and showed just how much they didn’t agree with the South’s philosophy on government and/or slavery.
If there’s a benefit to discussing this topic then why don’t we continue to try and convince ourselves and the rest of the country that Communism is wrong, or Totalitarianism, or make a few more movies about the subjects of Ethnic Cleansing, Christian Persecution, etc. All of these things are still legitimately being practiced abroad all over the globe! For crying out loud Mr. Lee, why not make a movie about the complete genocide that is occurring across the entire Continent of Africa right now!? They are still kidnapping children and selling them into slavery!! Focus your efforts and time on governments that have allowed the slaughter of millions and appear content to continue to do so, not on the ones that have freed the black community and given them the right to vote. Name another country that gives ‘blacks’ more freedoms and rights than the U.S.A.?

What about the slavery that continued to go on in Africa, England, Asia, etc even after our Civil War was over? Let’s say in fairness that Mr. Lee is only asking the question…what if? What if Slavery continued today? Clearly this is pure nonsense as no culture continues in this practice. Even now, in a ‘civilized’ age any modern culture has seen the error of ‘slavery’ and no one with any common sense would return to adhere to its doctrines of abuse and inhumanity. (Except for demagogues like Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, and more like in the Sudan. Course, I’m not sure that I’d ever put these people or government leaders into the category of ‘civilized’ people.)

Let’s face facts. Spike isn’t interested in creating new ‘dialogue’ on this subject so that healing can come and the lines of separation between the races can finally be removed. He’s proven through his own statements, actions, and other films that he truly believes that “White America” is out to destroy the black man. Oh, and he’s also still interested in his god….the Almighty Dollar. He sees racism for what it is. It’s a platform. A platform that he and people like him i.e. Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, etc, use as way to make a few more dollars off of the back of their black brothers and sisters. They argue time and time again how they want to get the black man off of the white man’s plantation, but then they turn around and re-enslave them by telling them to jump onto the Government’s Plantation and fall into the arms of their new father: Uncle Sam! They don’t deal with the issues that are really effecting, and destroying, the black community. Issues like, violence towards themselves in their own neighborhoods, broken families and fatherless homes, their need for a Savior (and they call themselves Reverends, but when’s the last time you heard Jesse Jackson preach the truth of Christ’s redemption on T.V.?). If Mr. Lee was truly interested in improving the black community, than he’d spend his money doing something constructive not ruinous and hateful.

Mr. McCoy,

Thanks for reading my comments and responding.

hmmmm, first question: I remember that scripture of “God making good out of evil”, but i thought it was only tied along with those who are called according to his purposes. Anyway, I see God using ‘evil’ people in scripture but it is usually him hardening their hearts so that he can judge them, or it is Him using them to judge his people ‘Israel’. Other than that, and I could be wrong, I don’t see him using the world and it’s wrong ideas for much else other than to point out that they are full of sin and going down the ‘broad path’ instead of the ‘narrow’ one and need to turn from their sinful behavior.

Second, I did and do ‘engage the culture’ by stating what I think about Mr. Lee’s ‘art’ and statements, and have voiced my responses to them clearly here and on my own page, as well as to my friends and acquaintances during typical dialogue with them over the years. I have also shown alternative uses of our time and finances that would have a much greater impact on the real issues that are facing the black community in general, contrary to just re-hashing old ideas on what occurred in yester-year to re-open old wounds and cause greater strife.

Third, what is our mission? To re-present Christ in this world? Well, I sure don’t think that Jesus would spend his money watching this film either and he would more than likely be out there trying to actually meet the ‘real’ needs of the black community and advising his ‘disciples’ to do the same. I think he would tell them to work hard, show kindness to others, pray for those who persecute you, stop committing adultery and having kids out of wed-lock, don’t commit crimes, pursue an education, love your neighbor, etc.
By the way, If I don’t spend my $10 bucks and then you don’t, and my neighbors don’t, etc, etc, etc, it tends to have a major impact; not just monetarily, but it also sends the message that the majority of intelligent people aren’t interested in a ‘movie’ that does nothing more than spew more denigration, venemous propaganda, and racism.

Marc,

Thanks for staying with the conversation, but please do not copy and paste others comments from other blogs. And the same goes for whole posts from your own blog. Feel free to provide links if you think it’s relevant. Thanks man.