Comments on: The Real Problem http://www.joethorn.net/2006/02/18/the-real-problem/ Wed, 03 Dec 2008 21:47:22 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: Justin http://www.joethorn.net/2006/02/18/the-real-problem/#comment-2513 Justin Fri, 07 Apr 2006 00:16:43 +0000 http://www.joethorn.net/2006/02/18/the-real-problem/#comment-2513 Thought about it some more. You're right. The analogy was pretty bad. :) Thought about it some more. You’re right. The analogy was pretty bad. :)

]]> By: Justin http://www.joethorn.net/2006/02/18/the-real-problem/#comment-2511 Justin Thu, 06 Apr 2006 18:11:14 +0000 http://www.joethorn.net/2006/02/18/the-real-problem/#comment-2511 Good points to ponder. Thanks for responding! Good points to ponder. Thanks for responding!

]]> By: Joe Thorn http://www.joethorn.net/2006/02/18/the-real-problem/#comment-2510 Joe Thorn Thu, 06 Apr 2006 17:23:52 +0000 http://www.joethorn.net/2006/02/18/the-real-problem/#comment-2510 The anaology does't work because you have a father negligently throwing his children in the water causing them to drown. It doesn't work because their inability to swim has nothing to do with their crime/sin. Our inability to "swim" is because we have cut off our own limbs in rebellion against God, thinking that in doing so we will become like God who doesn't actually have limbs - since he is a spirit. And we have rolled ourselves into the water. but even this illustrations is inadequate. God has given man a will, and he is a free agent - not coerced in making decisions from without. All reformed theology affirms this. But man only chooses what his nature allows, and our nature/heart in the fallen condition will not choose God until it has been renewed. The anaology does’t work because you have a father negligently throwing his children in the water causing them to drown. It doesn’t work because their inability to swim has nothing to do with their crime/sin. Our inability to “swim” is because we have cut off our own limbs in rebellion against God, thinking that in doing so we will become like God who doesn’t actually have limbs - since he is a spirit. And we have rolled ourselves into the water. but even this illustrations is inadequate.

God has given man a will, and he is a free agent - not coerced in making decisions from without. All reformed theology affirms this. But man only chooses what his nature allows, and our nature/heart in the fallen condition will not choose God until it has been renewed.

]]> By: Justin http://www.joethorn.net/2006/02/18/the-real-problem/#comment-2509 Justin Thu, 06 Apr 2006 17:12:21 +0000 http://www.joethorn.net/2006/02/18/the-real-problem/#comment-2509 I think the analogy fits, even after your explanation. Maybe not the chucking into the pool part, but it was the children's fault that they got dirty - not mine - in the analogy. My grace alone is what saved the ones I chose. I understand, though, that analogies are not perfect. Perhaps it would be mere speculation on our part, but another question this brings up is why could we accept that God gave man true free will in the Garden of Eden to choose good or evil, but does not today give man a similar free will to choose Him or reject Him? I think the analogy fits, even after your explanation. Maybe not the chucking into the pool part, but it was the children’s fault that they got dirty - not mine - in the analogy. My grace alone is what saved the ones I chose. I understand, though, that analogies are not perfect.

Perhaps it would be mere speculation on our part, but another question this brings up is why could we accept that God gave man true free will in the Garden of Eden to choose good or evil, but does not today give man a similar free will to choose Him or reject Him?

]]> By: Joe Thorn http://www.joethorn.net/2006/02/18/the-real-problem/#comment-2508 Joe Thorn Thu, 06 Apr 2006 16:01:02 +0000 http://www.joethorn.net/2006/02/18/the-real-problem/#comment-2508 Justin, feel free to email me if you want to dialogue a bit more freely (since this post is kind of old). Though keeping it here is fine too. "in not choosing some to be elect, isn’t that basically a way of indirectly/directly damning them?" Reformed thinkers explain it this way. God chooses some to save (undeserved grace) and leaves others to answer for their sin (deserved judgment). So Reprobation is God's decree in eternity past to pass over some, leaving them to experience justice. Condemnation is the actual punishment of their sins. So, no one goes to hell because of God's choice, they go to hell because of their sin. "An off-the-cuff analogy (though I am not presuming to be at all like God): Imagine I have five children,created in my image, whom I love. Contrary to my wishes that they keep their Sunday outfits clean, they all go play in a giant mud puddle, so I chuck all of them into a swimming pool because they are filthy little beasts. None of them, however, can swim. I then grab two of them and pull them out of the pool. The rest drown." Yeah, this is nothing like the doctrine of election. I personally do not favor analogies like this, so let me explain it the best I can in a comment. God made man in his image, righteous - but mutable (able to change). Man chose sin and threw himself/his heart into ruin. Our state of total depravity/total inability is our own fault. That we can no longer chose God is completely on us. For God to judge us in this condition is fair, just, even good. For God to demsontrate his mercy on just one individual is more than fair - it is grace. But because of the richness of his grace he chooses a number so great no one can count it. Justin, feel free to email me if you want to dialogue a bit more freely (since this post is kind of old). Though keeping it here is fine too.

“in not choosing some to be elect, isn’t that basically a way of indirectly/directly damning them?”

Reformed thinkers explain it this way. God chooses some to save (undeserved grace) and leaves others to answer for their sin (deserved judgment). So Reprobation is God’s decree in eternity past to pass over some, leaving them to experience justice. Condemnation is the actual punishment of their sins. So, no one goes to hell because of God’s choice, they go to hell because of their sin.

“An off-the-cuff analogy (though I am not presuming to be at all like God): Imagine I have five children,created in my image, whom I love. Contrary to my wishes that they keep their Sunday outfits clean, they all go play in a giant mud puddle, so I chuck all of them into a swimming pool because they are filthy little beasts. None of them, however, can swim. I then grab two of them and pull them out of the pool. The rest drown.”

Yeah, this is nothing like the doctrine of election. I personally do not favor analogies like this, so let me explain it the best I can in a comment.

God made man in his image, righteous - but mutable (able to change). Man chose sin and threw himself/his heart into ruin. Our state of total depravity/total inability is our own fault. That we can no longer chose God is completely on us. For God to judge us in this condition is fair, just, even good. For God to demsontrate his mercy on just one individual is more than fair - it is grace. But because of the richness of his grace he chooses a number so great no one can count it.

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