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	<title>Comments on: The Ninth</title>
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	<link>http://www.joethorn.net/2006/03/22/the-ninth/</link>
	<description>theology. church. culture. life.</description>
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		<title>By: caught in the middle</title>
		<link>http://www.joethorn.net/2006/03/22/the-ninth/#comment-1839</link>
		<dc:creator>caught in the middle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 May 2006 17:24:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joethorn.net/2006/03/22/the-ninth/#comment-1839</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;The Ninth Redivivus&lt;/strong&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>The Ninth Redivivus</strong></p>
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		<title>By: Jim W</title>
		<link>http://www.joethorn.net/2006/03/22/the-ninth/#comment-1838</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Mar 2006 02:04:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joethorn.net/2006/03/22/the-ninth/#comment-1838</guid>
		<description>False charges - spreading false accusations, what a surprise.  How do you think fundamentalists took over the SBC.  Anyone who is surprised by the current leadership of the SBC telling untruths about fellow baptists is either too young to remember the 80s or just hasn&#039;t been paying attention.  Why do you think the baptist conventions in Virginia, Texas and, until recently, North Carolina have distanced themselves from the SBC?  The increasing visibility of these leaders in Republican politics only reinforces the true motivation of their actions against fellow baptists.  When Richard Land meets publicly with Republican politicians and tells them that Southern Baptists support the recent House legislation making illegal entry into this country a felony offense, he is violating one of the oldest tenants of SBC polity - no SBC leader speaks for Southern Baptists.  They can state their own position and they can speak to us, but they don&#039;t speak for us.  The fact is they glory in their national exposure and are determined to push the convention deeper and deeper into Republican politics and take all the individual credit they can.  Former Senator John Danforth from Missouri was right when he recently wrote a column criticizing the increasing partnership between the Republican party and the religious right.  He argued that it is dangerous for the party and dangerous for religion.  Individuals should be involved in politics - it is their civic duty.  But using the convention to support controversial positions of one national party can be devastating if that party ultimately proves to be wrong.  It is no accident that more and more new baptist churches are choosing to leave Baptist out of their name.  Witness the new church in Georgia started by a recent President of the SBC.  Billy Graham was right when he refused to take public stands on controversial political issues.  He chose to preach Christ and His transforming power realizing that a transformed citizen is a good citizen regardless of his political affiliation.  We should all be as wise as Billy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>False charges &#8211; spreading false accusations, what a surprise.  How do you think fundamentalists took over the SBC.  Anyone who is surprised by the current leadership of the SBC telling untruths about fellow baptists is either too young to remember the 80s or just hasn&#8217;t been paying attention.  Why do you think the baptist conventions in Virginia, Texas and, until recently, North Carolina have distanced themselves from the SBC?  The increasing visibility of these leaders in Republican politics only reinforces the true motivation of their actions against fellow baptists.  When Richard Land meets publicly with Republican politicians and tells them that Southern Baptists support the recent House legislation making illegal entry into this country a felony offense, he is violating one of the oldest tenants of SBC polity &#8211; no SBC leader speaks for Southern Baptists.  They can state their own position and they can speak to us, but they don&#8217;t speak for us.  The fact is they glory in their national exposure and are determined to push the convention deeper and deeper into Republican politics and take all the individual credit they can.  Former Senator John Danforth from Missouri was right when he recently wrote a column criticizing the increasing partnership between the Republican party and the religious right.  He argued that it is dangerous for the party and dangerous for religion.  Individuals should be involved in politics &#8211; it is their civic duty.  But using the convention to support controversial positions of one national party can be devastating if that party ultimately proves to be wrong.  It is no accident that more and more new baptist churches are choosing to leave Baptist out of their name.  Witness the new church in Georgia started by a recent President of the SBC.  Billy Graham was right when he refused to take public stands on controversial political issues.  He chose to preach Christ and His transforming power realizing that a transformed citizen is a good citizen regardless of his political affiliation.  We should all be as wise as Billy.</p>
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		<title>By: Christine</title>
		<link>http://www.joethorn.net/2006/03/22/the-ninth/#comment-1837</link>
		<dc:creator>Christine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Mar 2006 20:53:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joethorn.net/2006/03/22/the-ninth/#comment-1837</guid>
		<description>Thank you for your plea to take a higher road in the midst of theological conversations, blogging, etc.  Something I&#039;ve been pondering came to mind again as I read this and I wonder what you or others have to say...

As believers we are not only told not to bear false witness, but also not to gossip or be slanderous, etc.  I work with college students for a living and have been asked, &quot;What&#039;s the difference between &#039;venting&#039; and &#039;gossiping&#039;?&quot;  I have seen students, my peers and myself (if I&#039;m honest), take part in venting about their feelings toward another person or situation (typically with a trusted friend or two as the recipient of the conversation).  Sometimes this is done &quot;objectively&quot;, that is, with the goal of relaying back the situation at hand, but I don&#039;t think it always happens this way.

In sum, (how) can we effectively vent or relay a particular situation to our friends or spouse or co-workers without gossiping or being slanderous?  Any thoughts on all of this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for your plea to take a higher road in the midst of theological conversations, blogging, etc.  Something I&#8217;ve been pondering came to mind again as I read this and I wonder what you or others have to say&#8230;</p>
<p>As believers we are not only told not to bear false witness, but also not to gossip or be slanderous, etc.  I work with college students for a living and have been asked, &#8220;What&#8217;s the difference between &#8216;venting&#8217; and &#8216;gossiping&#8217;?&#8221;  I have seen students, my peers and myself (if I&#8217;m honest), take part in venting about their feelings toward another person or situation (typically with a trusted friend or two as the recipient of the conversation).  Sometimes this is done &#8220;objectively&#8221;, that is, with the goal of relaying back the situation at hand, but I don&#8217;t think it always happens this way.</p>
<p>In sum, (how) can we effectively vent or relay a particular situation to our friends or spouse or co-workers without gossiping or being slanderous?  Any thoughts on all of this?</p>
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		<title>By: NextReformation &#187; the Ninth commandment..</title>
		<link>http://www.joethorn.net/2006/03/22/the-ninth/#comment-1836</link>
		<dc:creator>NextReformation &#187; the Ninth commandment..</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Mar 2006 16:30:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joethorn.net/2006/03/22/the-ninth/#comment-1836</guid>
		<description>[...] read more from Joe Thorn..     &#160; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] read more from Joe Thorn..     &nbsp; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Chris W</title>
		<link>http://www.joethorn.net/2006/03/22/the-ninth/#comment-1835</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Mar 2006 19:16:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joethorn.net/2006/03/22/the-ninth/#comment-1835</guid>
		<description>Brad, you question the respect of the emergents, but also spout this stuff, speaking of the very elders of the church you think Joe is disrespecting:

&quot;The old people can be a nuisance sometimes, but really they are not so bad.&quot;
&quot;Some of them smell like moth balls and need to lose the purple hair die...&quot;
&quot;It does appear to be a waste of time to me every now and then. The older people always seem to want prayer for their brother’s nephew’s cousin’s dog that broke its leg.&quot;

Despite these weird little comments you made, I see you love your church and its elder members dearly.  That&#039;s wonderful, but what did you see in Joe&#039;s post about making sure our criticism of others never becomes inaccurate or slanderous that made you post such a long response that offered nothing to the topic at hand?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brad, you question the respect of the emergents, but also spout this stuff, speaking of the very elders of the church you think Joe is disrespecting:</p>
<p>&#8220;The old people can be a nuisance sometimes, but really they are not so bad.&#8221;<br />
&#8220;Some of them smell like moth balls and need to lose the purple hair die&#8230;&#8221;<br />
&#8220;It does appear to be a waste of time to me every now and then. The older people always seem to want prayer for their brother’s nephew’s cousin’s dog that broke its leg.&#8221;</p>
<p>Despite these weird little comments you made, I see you love your church and its elder members dearly.  That&#8217;s wonderful, but what did you see in Joe&#8217;s post about making sure our criticism of others never becomes inaccurate or slanderous that made you post such a long response that offered nothing to the topic at hand?</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Thorn</title>
		<link>http://www.joethorn.net/2006/03/22/the-ninth/#comment-1834</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Thorn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Mar 2006 16:50:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joethorn.net/2006/03/22/the-ninth/#comment-1834</guid>
		<description>Labels are generally good if they fit. Common beliefs and history help us to know what labels really mean. So, I am fine with people using them when  they use them well, and engage the ideas of the people they are speaking of. If someone believes the Scripture is not &quot;perfect,&quot; nor the only means by which we establish our theology I would want to challenge the idea. If a prof or author is leading people to believe things that are not true I think we have to speak up. So, debate and disagreement is good as it can clarify what is true. I just want it to be done honorably.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Labels are generally good if they fit. Common beliefs and history help us to know what labels really mean. So, I am fine with people using them when  they use them well, and engage the ideas of the people they are speaking of. If someone believes the Scripture is not &#8220;perfect,&#8221; nor the only means by which we establish our theology I would want to challenge the idea. If a prof or author is leading people to believe things that are not true I think we have to speak up. So, debate and disagreement is good as it can clarify what is true. I just want it to be done honorably.</p>
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		<title>By: Trevan Osborn</title>
		<link>http://www.joethorn.net/2006/03/22/the-ninth/#comment-1833</link>
		<dc:creator>Trevan Osborn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Mar 2006 16:32:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joethorn.net/2006/03/22/the-ninth/#comment-1833</guid>
		<description>Joe,

Great post. I am a student in a Seminary right now. I have a teacher who loves telling stories about how awful the liberal theologians in our church are. He tells about how they destroy people&#039;s faith in the Bible and God, etc. Since I tend to be more on the &quot;liberal&quot; side (whatever that means), it eats away at me because it makes me feel belittled and like I am less of a Christian. I know it&#039;s not true but when you hear it everyday, it tends to wear on you.

At the same time, I always have to remind myself that I can&#039;t play the same game. I can be just as dogmatic and insensitive in talking about extremely conservative positions.

The real issue is control. We all want to control others and have people agree with us and follow our way of thinking. I have to remind myself that if everyone thought and acted like me, this world probably would not be very enjoyable. Embracing diversity and realizing that we don&#039;t have to control everybody is really the key.

I had never thought about these concepts in light of the Ninth Commandment. Great insight that I will keep with me for life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe,</p>
<p>Great post. I am a student in a Seminary right now. I have a teacher who loves telling stories about how awful the liberal theologians in our church are. He tells about how they destroy people&#8217;s faith in the Bible and God, etc. Since I tend to be more on the &#8220;liberal&#8221; side (whatever that means), it eats away at me because it makes me feel belittled and like I am less of a Christian. I know it&#8217;s not true but when you hear it everyday, it tends to wear on you.</p>
<p>At the same time, I always have to remind myself that I can&#8217;t play the same game. I can be just as dogmatic and insensitive in talking about extremely conservative positions.</p>
<p>The real issue is control. We all want to control others and have people agree with us and follow our way of thinking. I have to remind myself that if everyone thought and acted like me, this world probably would not be very enjoyable. Embracing diversity and realizing that we don&#8217;t have to control everybody is really the key.</p>
<p>I had never thought about these concepts in light of the Ninth Commandment. Great insight that I will keep with me for life.</p>
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		<title>By: John Frye</title>
		<link>http://www.joethorn.net/2006/03/22/the-ninth/#comment-1832</link>
		<dc:creator>John Frye</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Mar 2006 14:12:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joethorn.net/2006/03/22/the-ninth/#comment-1832</guid>
		<description>Joe,
I&#039;m came over when I saw Scot McKnight&#039;s reference to your post. I, too, thank you for your admonishment and confession. I needed to read it and take it to heart.

Don Miller was in Grand Rapids, MI recently and while he can find humor in his opponents&#039; slander of his character, you can tell it hurts him, too. If Don is liberal, then the Pope is protestant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe,<br />
I&#8217;m came over when I saw Scot McKnight&#8217;s reference to your post. I, too, thank you for your admonishment and confession. I needed to read it and take it to heart.</p>
<p>Don Miller was in Grand Rapids, MI recently and while he can find humor in his opponents&#8217; slander of his character, you can tell it hurts him, too. If Don is liberal, then the Pope is protestant.</p>
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		<title>By: Jesus Creed &#187; Blogs of the Week</title>
		<link>http://www.joethorn.net/2006/03/22/the-ninth/#comment-1831</link>
		<dc:creator>Jesus Creed &#187; Blogs of the Week</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Mar 2006 13:01:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joethorn.net/2006/03/22/the-ninth/#comment-1831</guid>
		<description>[...] Joe Thorn gets my top billing this week: excellent post on how to talk about one another. The Ninth Commandment. (HT: Steve McCoy) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Joe Thorn gets my top billing this week: excellent post on how to talk about one another. The Ninth Commandment. (HT: Steve McCoy) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Steve McCoy</title>
		<link>http://www.joethorn.net/2006/03/22/the-ninth/#comment-1830</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve McCoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Mar 2006 05:18:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joethorn.net/2006/03/22/the-ninth/#comment-1830</guid>
		<description>Joe, Brad&#039;s comment is so riddled with false statements and judgments (as you clearly show in your comment) that it barely deserves a response.  I will say this much to you, Brad&#039;s comment shows exactly why you needed to write this post.  Thanks.

Brad,

The fact that you can&#039;t spell &quot;McCoy&quot; shows your utter ignorance of all things &quot;emerging.&quot;  LOL  That was a joke bro.  (Oh, and &quot;bro&quot; is what we cool people say when we mean &quot;brother.&quot;)

It sounds like the heart of your point is respect.  Because of some old &quot;war&quot; I suppose we are forced to just take erroneous, uncharitable, and unbiblical judgments of people like Miller?  Must we only speak about Coppengers former wars and glory days?  Or can we actually just speak directly about the topic he chose to address?

I&#039;ll be honest.  There&#039;s one guy who has shoes I am unworthy to untie, and they aren&#039;t the Right Reverend Coppenger.  I agree about respecting our elders, but I don&#039;t see anything disrespectful about Brethren Thorn&#039;s post.

The saddest thing is, you wrote a comment much longer than Joe&#039;s post, and I&#039;m not sure you engaged a single point he made.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe, Brad&#8217;s comment is so riddled with false statements and judgments (as you clearly show in your comment) that it barely deserves a response.  I will say this much to you, Brad&#8217;s comment shows exactly why you needed to write this post.  Thanks.</p>
<p>Brad,</p>
<p>The fact that you can&#8217;t spell &#8220;McCoy&#8221; shows your utter ignorance of all things &#8220;emerging.&#8221;  LOL  That was a joke bro.  (Oh, and &#8220;bro&#8221; is what we cool people say when we mean &#8220;brother.&#8221;)</p>
<p>It sounds like the heart of your point is respect.  Because of some old &#8220;war&#8221; I suppose we are forced to just take erroneous, uncharitable, and unbiblical judgments of people like Miller?  Must we only speak about Coppengers former wars and glory days?  Or can we actually just speak directly about the topic he chose to address?</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll be honest.  There&#8217;s one guy who has shoes I am unworthy to untie, and they aren&#8217;t the Right Reverend Coppenger.  I agree about respecting our elders, but I don&#8217;t see anything disrespectful about Brethren Thorn&#8217;s post.</p>
<p>The saddest thing is, you wrote a comment much longer than Joe&#8217;s post, and I&#8217;m not sure you engaged a single point he made.</p>
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