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	<title>Comments on: Worship Incarnate</title>
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	<description>steve mccoy is my Bud Abbott</description>
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		<title>By: Joe Thorn</title>
		<link>http://www.joethorn.net/2006/06/06/worship-incarnated/#comment-3595</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Thorn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jun 2006 20:03:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Good words Laura (or Laura Beth?). Thanks for sharing your suggestions. As I said, we have been writing our own songs for a few years now, but a songwriting group is a new idea for us. Great idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good words Laura (or Laura Beth?). Thanks for sharing your suggestions. As I said, we have been writing our own songs for a few years now, but a songwriting group is a new idea for us. Great idea.</p>
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		<title>By: Laura Beth O'Nan</title>
		<link>http://www.joethorn.net/2006/06/06/worship-incarnated/#comment-3592</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura Beth O'Nan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jun 2006 15:53:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Joe, thank you for this post.  Here are a few thoughts and comments:

I heard Kevin Twit (RUF Belmont, Indelible Grace) speak a couple months ago. He said something so simple and so profound that will probably always stick with me. Though this is not verbatim, he said that if we are practicing God-honoring, Christ-centered worship, we will occasionally be singing songs we do not like. The body of Christ is diverse. I may not care for a song much at all, but that same song may ignite a sense of praise and worship in another person. I am a songwriter and trained musician, so I fight, battle, and struggle with pride, criticism, and a bad attitude when we sing songs I don&#039;t care for. There&#039;s a confession for you, but I don&#039;t think I&#039;m the only one that struggles with this.  More than anything, I need humility when it comes to worship. My way is not the best and only way. 

Second, a great way to have culturally relevant music in our churches is to have people in our churches writing songs for their congregations to sing. I know what you are thinking - easier said than done. However, I have a few suggestions for helping people start to write songs for their churches.  
Start a songwriting group. Anyone who is slightly interested should be encouraged to come. Most people have never written a song, and that&#039;s okay. Some people have written a poem to God. Some people would like to try writing a poem to God. Some people may just want to sit in and observe. All that is okay. The songwriting group at our church meets about once a month. There are some people who are excellent at writing lyrics but not so great at coming up with a singable melody. (Congregational music needs to be very singable.) Others aren&#039;t comfortable with the lyrics but are great at coming up with melodies. Others are better at critiquing the lyrics, making sure they are God-centered, and biblically accurate. (This word usually bring up this conotation, so is that what you want to communicate? What about using this word instead of that word? I&#039;m not sure that this phrase is exactly accurate with what Scripture teaches., etc.) Others are more gifted in working out meter with the lyrics. Many of the songs presented are never sung during congregational worship. Some are. But a group of people are working together to produce God-centered, biblically-grounded songs of worship. 
It has been my experience that when a church knows that a church member has written a song, they immediately seek to love and accept that song. If you have a collaborative group that seeks to make those songs fit for congregational worship, the element of pride that a songwriter can often feel is diffused. Another beneift of the group is that you can talk about pride and pray together for humility.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe, thank you for this post.  Here are a few thoughts and comments:</p>
<p>I heard Kevin Twit (RUF Belmont, Indelible Grace) speak a couple months ago. He said something so simple and so profound that will probably always stick with me. Though this is not verbatim, he said that if we are practicing God-honoring, Christ-centered worship, we will occasionally be singing songs we do not like. The body of Christ is diverse. I may not care for a song much at all, but that same song may ignite a sense of praise and worship in another person. I am a songwriter and trained musician, so I fight, battle, and struggle with pride, criticism, and a bad attitude when we sing songs I don&#8217;t care for. There&#8217;s a confession for you, but I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;m the only one that struggles with this.  More than anything, I need humility when it comes to worship. My way is not the best and only way. </p>
<p>Second, a great way to have culturally relevant music in our churches is to have people in our churches writing songs for their congregations to sing. I know what you are thinking &#8211; easier said than done. However, I have a few suggestions for helping people start to write songs for their churches.<br />
Start a songwriting group. Anyone who is slightly interested should be encouraged to come. Most people have never written a song, and that&#8217;s okay. Some people have written a poem to God. Some people would like to try writing a poem to God. Some people may just want to sit in and observe. All that is okay. The songwriting group at our church meets about once a month. There are some people who are excellent at writing lyrics but not so great at coming up with a singable melody. (Congregational music needs to be very singable.) Others aren&#8217;t comfortable with the lyrics but are great at coming up with melodies. Others are better at critiquing the lyrics, making sure they are God-centered, and biblically accurate. (This word usually bring up this conotation, so is that what you want to communicate? What about using this word instead of that word? I&#8217;m not sure that this phrase is exactly accurate with what Scripture teaches., etc.) Others are more gifted in working out meter with the lyrics. Many of the songs presented are never sung during congregational worship. Some are. But a group of people are working together to produce God-centered, biblically-grounded songs of worship.<br />
It has been my experience that when a church knows that a church member has written a song, they immediately seek to love and accept that song. If you have a collaborative group that seeks to make those songs fit for congregational worship, the element of pride that a songwriter can often feel is diffused. Another beneift of the group is that you can talk about pride and pray together for humility.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Williams</title>
		<link>http://www.joethorn.net/2006/06/06/worship-incarnated/#comment-3584</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jun 2006 20:11:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I am struggling mightily with this right now.  I am 31 years old in the bayous of Louisiana pastoring a church 100 years old with a median age of probably 55.  The music director of 29 years resigned Sunday and left no notice.  I have huge cultural issues here.  Really, the difference between a 60 year old Cajun and a twenty-five year old &quot;immigrant&quot; from Michigan is just unbelievable.  So I have decided that the first thing that needs to go is not our organ, it is our pride.  If we could ditch that, by the glory of God, we could certainly be more effective in our community.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am struggling mightily with this right now.  I am 31 years old in the bayous of Louisiana pastoring a church 100 years old with a median age of probably 55.  The music director of 29 years resigned Sunday and left no notice.  I have huge cultural issues here.  Really, the difference between a 60 year old Cajun and a twenty-five year old &#8220;immigrant&#8221; from Michigan is just unbelievable.  So I have decided that the first thing that needs to go is not our organ, it is our pride.  If we could ditch that, by the glory of God, we could certainly be more effective in our community.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Thorn</title>
		<link>http://www.joethorn.net/2006/06/06/worship-incarnated/#comment-3566</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Thorn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jun 2006 16:55:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Paul (sacred vapor),

I would not pit presentational against formative. Scripture itself seems to have both in mind. That worship is the response of God&#039;s people to him and his grace is everywhere in Scripture. We present our prayers and pleas to God, our adoration, even the whole of our lives as an act of worship both corporately and individually (Rom 12). And our worship is formative, both in terms of corporate identity and spiritual development. Perhaps we could say that worship is presentation that births formation.

Just thinking out loud here.

I care less about where the preacher stands or sits, and how the service is arranged (things accidental) so long as there is preaching, etc.

Todd, I look forward to reading your thoughts on all this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul (sacred vapor),</p>
<p>I would not pit presentational against formative. Scripture itself seems to have both in mind. That worship is the response of God&#8217;s people to him and his grace is everywhere in Scripture. We present our prayers and pleas to God, our adoration, even the whole of our lives as an act of worship both corporately and individually (Rom 12). And our worship is formative, both in terms of corporate identity and spiritual development. Perhaps we could say that worship is presentation that births formation.</p>
<p>Just thinking out loud here.</p>
<p>I care less about where the preacher stands or sits, and how the service is arranged (things accidental) so long as there is preaching, etc.</p>
<p>Todd, I look forward to reading your thoughts on all this.</p>
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		<title>By: sacred vapor</title>
		<link>http://www.joethorn.net/2006/06/06/worship-incarnated/#comment-3565</link>
		<dc:creator>sacred vapor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jun 2006 16:35:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I like the idea of thinking through this issue in terms of &#039;formative&#039; vs &#039;presentational.&#039; Seems that the problem is  that we, as a body of believers meet together corporately to worship (formative), but the whole church service setup, such as a group of people facing a pulpit, stage, etc... is kind of a presentational model.

The structure of following a bulletin (list of sequential acts like a play), possibly multiple visual displays, music, etc.. is an entertainment-based approach. 

Not saying this is bad, but wondering if this may be the thing that blurs the objective in how we &#039;do&#039; corporate worship.

vapor</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the idea of thinking through this issue in terms of &#8216;formative&#8217; vs &#8216;presentational.&#8217; Seems that the problem is  that we, as a body of believers meet together corporately to worship (formative), but the whole church service setup, such as a group of people facing a pulpit, stage, etc&#8230; is kind of a presentational model.</p>
<p>The structure of following a bulletin (list of sequential acts like a play), possibly multiple visual displays, music, etc.. is an entertainment-based approach. </p>
<p>Not saying this is bad, but wondering if this may be the thing that blurs the objective in how we &#8216;do&#8217; corporate worship.</p>
<p>vapor</p>
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