I am Joe Thorn, the Lead Pastor of 
Guilt by Association
February 21st, 2007One man has created a lot of unnecessary drama in the Missouri Baptist Convention recently, taking issue with The Journey’s culture and theology dialogue ministry held at a local pub. Yesterday at the SBC’s Executive Committee meeting in Nashville, TN the same guy made a motion that now calls called into question Ed Stetzer. “Whaaa?” you say? That’s what I said.
This appears to be a case of guilt by association. The gist of this man’s argument is that when we work with other evangelical bodies outside of the SBC we are endorsing everything anyone does or thinks who is also a part of that organization. Were this true it would create serious problems for many of our best leaders and professors who work with other groups who differ from the SBC but remain evangelical. The whole thing would be funny if this guy wasn’t serious, and wasting everyone else’s time. You can read what he said here. Looks like thus guy is good at stirring things up and creating drama (try google), and I fear that people will be led to believe things about Ed that are not true.
I do not have the time to set fire to every straw man he has built, so let me just say a few things about Ed Stetzer, and quote him on related issues.
First, I can’t tell you how many younger leaders in the SBC have been encouraged to stay in the convention because of Ed. His commitment to truth, mission and cooperation is exemplary and encouraging. When I have felt that there was little hope for our future, he is one of the few men I could point to knowing that he sees a future for us that is built on a confessional/biblical theology and united in mission. Simply put, Ed Stetzer is one of the most articulate voices we have addressing the issue of mission and cooperation.
Ed on cooperating with different kinds of churches in the SBC, and on being baptist.
Does that mean any and every theological position or practice can and should be part of the SBC? No, certainly not! I am a Baptist, not because I was reared or redeemed at a Baptist church, because I was not. I am a Baptist because I [am] a Biblicist. Based on my best understanding of scripture, “Baptist” and “biblical” are, and should be, synonyms. Problems come when we place history, tradition, or even consensus over the authority of scripture (something which I believe the BFM2000 adeptly avoided). But the Southern Baptist Convention is a convention with which we joyfully affiliate and partner for a cooperative mission from a common theological persuasion (the current Baptist Faith and Message).
- pp. 34, 35 Toward a Missional Convention (PDF)
Ed on his association with “emerging” churches.
It is not a big secret that I have written some things that well-known emergent leaders do not like. I have the unfortunate distinction of having been called “unhelpful” by the head of Emergent (link). However, there are also some who think that anyone who says something kind about some emerging church leaders must be apostate. My hope is that we can be discerning enough to see the good as well as the bad, and to know the difference.
…
I do think that there is some serious theological error in part of the “emerging church” and I have written about it (see below). We need to speak clearly when the clear teaching of scripture is disregarded or misunderstood. Furthermore, there are some emerging churches where there is solid theology but an unhealthy emphasis on Christian liberty (language, alcohol, etc.). We need to speak honestly about the need for discernment and maturity in such contexts.
- Baptist Center for Theology and Ministry Blog
Ed on alcohol.
First, my view on alcohol is pretty simple. My dad is a recovered alcoholic, so I was raised around the devastation of alcohol. I would not promote a product that causes over 75,000 deaths per year. So, the churches I planted always had a policy that our pastors did not drink alcohol. It is a witness issue for us.
Second, there is not a Southern Baptist Church, but it is rather a convention of autonomous churches. The SBC has passed about a bazillion resolutions against alcohol so the convention would be solidly in the anti-alcohol camp.
I, personally, do help Christians who differ with me on the issue. But, that does not mean I endorse everything they do any more than I am endorsing everything that the Assemblies of God believes when I teach there.
I think we can help and encourage others to do biblical ministry and reach the lost without endorsing everything they do.
- Comment at the Baptist Center for Theology and Ministry Blog
In the end this isn’t even about Ed. It’s about the future of our Convention. Can we unite around the gospel and mission for the glory of God? I was encouraged to think “yes” after the Baptist ID Conference. But this kind of unnecessary drama makes me ask the question all over again.
February 21st, 2007 at 10:28 am
[...] When Things Were Looking Good . . . Someone in the SBC has too come along and try to screw things up. Good grief. When will we learn the lessons of the past? And people are wondering why the [...]
February 21st, 2007 at 3:02 pm
[...] Joe Thorn connects the dots, and has great Stetzer quotes. This entry was posted on Wednesday, February 21st, 2007 at 4:02 pm by Michael Spencer and is filed under Uncategorized. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed.
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February 21st, 2007 at 8:19 pm
amen, joe. sad stuff indeed. shooting ourselves in the foot. i’m glad for what you said about stetzer–i’m one of those “young guys” who looks to ed as encouragement to stick w/ the sbc. ed, you and steve, of course… ;^)
February 21st, 2007 at 10:24 pm
I read this stuff and I just want to punch someone in the face!
It doesn’t make me want to love my neighbor if you know what I mean.
February 21st, 2007 at 10:32 pm
I find it amazing that Moran is so worried about these “unique” people and issues and thinks they pose such a big threat. Why isn’t he worried about the fact that the masses of our 44,000 churches may not be drinking but they don’t seem to be doing much of anything else. The sad number of churches reporting any long term conversion and baptism numbers and impact is alarming. Why doesn’t that convict Roger Moran and make him sound the alarm for real evangelism, outreach and impact from our churches.
As far as I see it, Ed Stetzer and Thom Rainer are among the few among SBC national leaders who really get what we are supposed to be doing. I don’t know what is going on in Missouri or what Moran seems to what to accomplish by this show, but it sure does sound like someone building his own kingdom.
link
With input from Dr. Thom Rainer, President and CEO of LifeWay Christian Resources, the research area determined to look at churches that met the following criteria: baptized at least 26 people per year for 10 consecutive years; overall worship attendance growth during the same 10 years; and a membership to baptism ratio of no more than 20 to 1.
Out of more than 43,000 churches in the SBC, 22 met the criteria based on data they reported annually. Of these, 19 agreed to have several staff members and lay leaders participate in a process of one-on-one interviews. (A list of the participating churches can be found at the end of this article).
February 22nd, 2007 at 6:34 am
[...] During the last X-Comm session, Roger Moran took a point of personal privilege in order to address the assembly with his concern about “emerging/emergent movement.” As has been sufficiently pointed out in the previous comment thread, the gentleman from Missouri made a number of errors (see also Joe Thorn). [...]
February 22nd, 2007 at 9:18 am
Joe:
Your opening line: “One man has created a lot of unnecessary drama in the Missouri Baptist Convention recently, taking issue with The Journey’s culture and theology dialogue ministry held at a local pub.” is a little troubling.
What proof would you put behind that assertion?
And if you can’t back that up, would you tone down the rhetoric on Moran? Attack his views, not his character, man.
February 22nd, 2007 at 10:10 am
Joe, you are absoultely right on this issue. Those of us in Missouri have had to suffer through Moran’s nonsense for years. He is greatly responsible for much of the mess that we are in, and he has frequently twisted the facts and used guilt-by-association attacks to defame his brothers and sisters in Christ. Perhaps Moran should worry less about the specks in other people’s eyes, and deal with the plank in his own (to learn more about Moran, click here).
As for Rodney’s attack on your post, do not let that bother you because he has also been part of the problem. He has also made inaccurate and unethical guilt-by-association attacks on fellow Baptists (see more here).
February 22nd, 2007 at 10:26 am
Kaylor, I didn’t read Rodney’s comment as an attack, but a question about my post.
Rodney, I have been following the drama in Missouri for some time now, and have had a number of conversations with pastors and church members from that convention.
I really do not intend to attack a man (part of why I did not use his name). I do not think I said anything here that isn’t already known (this guy’s issue with The Journey), or what isn’t out there (his words at the Executive Committee).
Here’s how I see the whole thing. Moran takes a point of personal privilege at that meeting to speak to a referral/motion. It’s nothing really. Just one man’s thoughts as he tries to connect dots that do not exist. But when he brought Ed Stetzer into this, and cast him in an unfavorable light I thought it was important to set the record straight - as much as possible - concerning what Ed is all about. This was more about the idea of guilt by association and getting the truth out there about one of our greatest missionary thinkers.
February 24th, 2007 at 3:14 pm
[...] back home from the Baptist Identity Conference but couldn’t quite get the text moving. The recent controversy into which Ed Dr. Stetzer’s names has been dragged provided proper impetuous to finally put text to word [...]
March 5th, 2007 at 8:57 am
[...] in the same manner with any of Mr. Moran’s statements? Others have details (see this, this, and this), but Mr. Moran makes some very misleading (if not flat out false) statements and I [...]
March 6th, 2007 at 8:32 am
[...] deep comedy provided for free. See Joe Thorn for more. Hat tip to Steve [...]