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	<title>Comments on: Altered Abstract w/ Scripture</title>
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	<link>http://www.joethorn.net/2007/05/21/abstract-w-scripture/</link>
	<description>theology. church. culture. life.</description>
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		<title>By: GUNNY HARTMAN</title>
		<link>http://www.joethorn.net/2007/05/21/abstract-w-scripture/#comment-3324</link>
		<dc:creator>GUNNY HARTMAN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 May 2007 04:30:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>We made some similar changes to the Abstract when Providence Church adopted it.

Most notably, perhaps, we really changed I, IV, VI, and XVII.

I. The Scriptures were given by inspiration of God, and are the only sufficient, certain and authoritative rule of all saving knowledge, faith and obedience. The Bible’s 39 Old Testament books and the 27 New Testament books are regarded as inerrant and infallible in their respective Hebrew and Greek original manuscripts. (much more defined in our inerrancy)

IV. ... nor does He destroy the free agency and responsibility ... (free agency was less confusing for our folks than freewill)

VI. The Fall of Man
God originally created humanity in His own image, and free from sin; but, through the temptation of Satan, Adam transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original holiness and righteousness; whereby all of humanity were cursed and his posterity inherit a nature corrupt and wholly opposed to God and His law and are under condemnation. All our actual transgressions proceed from this original corruption, by which we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and totally inclined to all evil. (the original appeared to some to allow for and potentially suggest the notion of the &quot;age of accountability,&quot; so we borrowed some from the WCF and came up with a nice elaboration)

XVII. The Lord&#039;s Day
The Lord&#039;s Day is a Christian institution for regular observance, and should be employed in exercises of worship and spiritual devotion, both public and private. (nobody really knew what &quot;worldly amusements were&quot; and we&#039;re not really what some would consider sabbitarian anyway)

One question I do have for the sabbatarians, not meaning to be contentious or anything like that, but ...

What would a church member have to do in order to be disciplined for violating the sabbath?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We made some similar changes to the Abstract when Providence Church adopted it.</p>
<p>Most notably, perhaps, we really changed I, IV, VI, and XVII.</p>
<p>I. The Scriptures were given by inspiration of God, and are the only sufficient, certain and authoritative rule of all saving knowledge, faith and obedience. The Bible’s 39 Old Testament books and the 27 New Testament books are regarded as inerrant and infallible in their respective Hebrew and Greek original manuscripts. (much more defined in our inerrancy)</p>
<p>IV. &#8230; nor does He destroy the free agency and responsibility &#8230; (free agency was less confusing for our folks than freewill)</p>
<p>VI. The Fall of Man<br />
God originally created humanity in His own image, and free from sin; but, through the temptation of Satan, Adam transgressed the command of God, and fell from his original holiness and righteousness; whereby all of humanity were cursed and his posterity inherit a nature corrupt and wholly opposed to God and His law and are under condemnation. All our actual transgressions proceed from this original corruption, by which we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and totally inclined to all evil. (the original appeared to some to allow for and potentially suggest the notion of the &#8220;age of accountability,&#8221; so we borrowed some from the WCF and came up with a nice elaboration)</p>
<p>XVII. The Lord&#8217;s Day<br />
The Lord&#8217;s Day is a Christian institution for regular observance, and should be employed in exercises of worship and spiritual devotion, both public and private. (nobody really knew what &#8220;worldly amusements were&#8221; and we&#8217;re not really what some would consider sabbitarian anyway)</p>
<p>One question I do have for the sabbatarians, not meaning to be contentious or anything like that, but &#8230;</p>
<p>What would a church member have to do in order to be disciplined for violating the sabbath?</p>
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		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://www.joethorn.net/2007/05/21/abstract-w-scripture/#comment-3323</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 15:59:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joethorn.net/2007/05/21/abstract-w-scripture/#comment-3323</guid>
		<description>I never made much of this issue. Some of members my family, though, have massive issues even with, say, grocery shopping on Sundays.  I guess I see it more as an issue of conscience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I never made much of this issue. Some of members my family, though, have massive issues even with, say, grocery shopping on Sundays.  I guess I see it more as an issue of conscience.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Thorn</title>
		<link>http://www.joethorn.net/2007/05/21/abstract-w-scripture/#comment-3322</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Thorn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2007 23:24:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joethorn.net/2007/05/21/abstract-w-scripture/#comment-3322</guid>
		<description>I know what you mean man. It&#039;s never comfortable out here when the guys I look up to are &quot;over there&quot; on an issue. Thankfully it&#039;s rather uncommon for me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know what you mean man. It&#8217;s never comfortable out here when the guys I look up to are &#8220;over there&#8221; on an issue. Thankfully it&#8217;s rather uncommon for me.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Williams</title>
		<link>http://www.joethorn.net/2007/05/21/abstract-w-scripture/#comment-3321</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2007 23:23:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joethorn.net/2007/05/21/abstract-w-scripture/#comment-3321</guid>
		<description>Joe,

Thanks for taking the time to answer.  I am working at this from the opposite view; I have never been a convinced Sabbatarian.  I understand the arguments, and I am not yet persuaded.  The reason I experience such trepidation over this is because of the vast numbers of discerning, biblical writers who hold and held this position, Boyce not the least!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe,</p>
<p>Thanks for taking the time to answer.  I am working at this from the opposite view; I have never been a convinced Sabbatarian.  I understand the arguments, and I am not yet persuaded.  The reason I experience such trepidation over this is because of the vast numbers of discerning, biblical writers who hold and held this position, Boyce not the least!</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Thorn</title>
		<link>http://www.joethorn.net/2007/05/21/abstract-w-scripture/#comment-3320</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Thorn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2007 23:04:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.joethorn.net/2007/05/21/abstract-w-scripture/#comment-3320</guid>
		<description>Brad, there is debate about Calvin&#039;s view of the sabbath, but most understand that his view is different than the puritans in a few ways - approach/emphasis and perhaps practice. There is also debate about his own activity on the Lord&#039;s Day - check out the biographies on the man. In the end, I like his view better and said it is &lt;em&gt;closer to mine&lt;/em&gt;. His essential treatment of it is in line with mine, though his application of it is different. For me, it is not about Calvin&#039;s view, but what I am convinced of Scripturally.

Christians do not keep the sabbath. After Christ&#039;s res&#039; and appearances the early church began gathering on the Lord&#039;s Day. After after his res&#039; the early church does not seem to confuse the &quot;Lords Day&quot; with the Sabbath.

The issue for me is uncomfortable because I like my theology to fit into neat categories and line up in ways my mind finds appealing. On the surface the sabbatarian view does this for me. Unforunately, I am not biblically convinced by the arguments for a sabbatarian practice on the Lord&#039;s Day. I think we should gather and worship together as the early church did. Beyond that its an involved discussion.

How do we view the law, the Decalogue, the fourth commandment in particular, etc. Then - with the fourth commandment, what has changed about it? The day? Anything else? And very importantly, how do Heb 4 and Col 2 help us in the discussion.

I understand the arguments for the sabbatarian view. I used to hold to it, but the hermeneutical circle has led me away from it. It is not something I get worked up about at all. But the biblical argument is not as easy as some would suggest, and keeping it is even more difficult - though that, in and of itself, has no bearing on its validity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brad, there is debate about Calvin&#8217;s view of the sabbath, but most understand that his view is different than the puritans in a few ways &#8211; approach/emphasis and perhaps practice. There is also debate about his own activity on the Lord&#8217;s Day &#8211; check out the biographies on the man. In the end, I like his view better and said it is <em>closer to mine</em>. His essential treatment of it is in line with mine, though his application of it is different. For me, it is not about Calvin&#8217;s view, but what I am convinced of Scripturally.</p>
<p>Christians do not keep the sabbath. After Christ&#8217;s res&#8217; and appearances the early church began gathering on the Lord&#8217;s Day. After after his res&#8217; the early church does not seem to confuse the &#8220;Lords Day&#8221; with the Sabbath.</p>
<p>The issue for me is uncomfortable because I like my theology to fit into neat categories and line up in ways my mind finds appealing. On the surface the sabbatarian view does this for me. Unforunately, I am not biblically convinced by the arguments for a sabbatarian practice on the Lord&#8217;s Day. I think we should gather and worship together as the early church did. Beyond that its an involved discussion.</p>
<p>How do we view the law, the Decalogue, the fourth commandment in particular, etc. Then &#8211; with the fourth commandment, what has changed about it? The day? Anything else? And very importantly, how do Heb 4 and Col 2 help us in the discussion.</p>
<p>I understand the arguments for the sabbatarian view. I used to hold to it, but the hermeneutical circle has led me away from it. It is not something I get worked up about at all. But the biblical argument is not as easy as some would suggest, and keeping it is even more difficult &#8211; though that, in and of itself, has no bearing on its validity.</p>
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