Pagan Christianity

Posted by Joe Thorn - 01/01/08

Pagan Christianity


I’m blogging from my Blackberry because I have to begin venting my
thoughts on this a bit or I will explode.

I was sent an advanced copy of the book, Pagan Christianity, to read and review. Though I explained to the publisher I did not know when I would get around to reading it, they sent it anyway. As I thumbed through it over the weekend I was compelled to read and interact with the book as soon as possible. It’s the kind of book I read with great frustration (see photo), yet the topics and perspective are provocative enough to elicit good conversation. I will blog on this in a few different parts in order to touch on points I think are of particular importance. I am half way through it, so for now I’ll only introduce the book, where the authors are coming from and where I am coming from. This way you’ll know what to expect in the coming posts.

Viola and Barna argue that “most” of the practices of the contemporary church “were borrowed from pagan culture.” (pg. xix) Our buildings, leadership, order of worship, sermons and much more are all labeled unbiblical, and harmful to the health of Christians. Pagan Christianity is ultimately arguing for an “organic church” model that is “characterized by spirit-led, open-participatory meetings and non-hierarchical leadership.” (xix). They admit on the front end that this book is not intended to be a theoretical exercise. They are not interested in simply getting people to think, or become aware of the origins of our current practices. They intend to move us. To bring about change (xxx, 253).

So far I have found myself nodding in agreement with some of their observations about our current practices. They rightly perceive some problems inherent in how we “do church” today. But I also think problems are often overstated, and proposed solutions are an over-reaction. Their concern for the health of the local church and their passion to do things biblically are mine as well. But we wind up coming out at very different places.

I’ll begin blogging through the book today or tomorrow.

Joe Thorn
Sent via the BlackBerry Pearl

23 Comments

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  1. Joe,

    Thanks for doing this. I have ordered this book and planned on blogging through it myself. Thanks for doing this! I look forward to reading your reactions.

    zach

    Comment by Zach Nielsen — January 1, 2008 #

  2. [...] as it got out of the first century, and now we’ll get it right.” My money’s on Joe Thorn for the guy who will blog through the book with the most balanced response. If I do get around to reading it, I’ll probably be skipping [...]

    Pingback by The Boar’s Head Tavern » — January 1, 2008 #

  3. Thanks Joe. We’re reaching a “French Revolution” mentality with some of our brothers.

    Pertinent quote from Eugene Peterson:

    “What other church is there besides institutional? There’s nobody who doesn’t have problems with the church, because there’s sin in the church. But there’s no other place to be a Christian except the church. There’s sin in the local bank. There’s sin in the grocery stores. I really don’t understand this naïve criticism of the institution. I really don’t get it. Frederick von Hugel said the institution of the church is like the bark on the tree. There’s no life in the bark. It’s dead wood. But it protects the life of the tree within. And the tree grows and grows. If you take the bark off, it’s prone to disease, dehydration, death. So, yes, the church is dead but it protects something alive. And when you try to have a church without bark, it doesn’t last long. It disappears, gets sick, and it’s prone to all kinds of disease, heresy, and narcissism.”

    Comment by imonk — January 1, 2008 #

  4. Great quote Michael. Thanks.

    Comment by Joe Thorn — January 1, 2008 #

  5. Joe, I too am glad you’re doing this.

    Something I thought of as I was discussing this post was that it was my impression that the early church was modeled on the synagogue. If that’s the case, then this book is in dangerous water. Jesus and Paul worshiped in synagogues without any issues at all so if “church” is wrong, they need to take it up with those two.

    I don’t remember where I read/heard that. I’ll have to look into it some more.

    Comment by Tim Etherington — January 1, 2008 #

  6. They dismiss that perspective outright in the book. I will touch on it in an upcoming post.

    Comment by Joe Thorn — January 1, 2008 #

  7. They’d have to, wouldn’t they?

    Comment by Tim Etherington — January 1, 2008 #

  8. “borrowed from pagan culture”

    Boy yeah, I don’t know about you but dancing all night in those goat skin leggings wears me out every time. Have to have a word with the deacons about that…

    Comment by Josh — January 2, 2008 #

  9. Cool that you’re blogging through this. It’s definitely a provocative title, no?

    I received a review copy too, but haven’t started reading yet. Now I’m debating whether to read your thoughts before or after I try to articulate my own. Objectivity and all that… :)

    Comment by AJ — January 2, 2008 #

  10. Crazy isn’t it that we’re in a time when a book like this draws so much bona fide interest rather than just fueling another polarized debate. I join the ranks of those who have been considering issues like these already, and I agree with Viola & Barna on many points. Something out there must be ripe for a change of some drastic nature.

    Jonathan

    Comment by Jonathan — January 2, 2008 #

  11. You know, I have read Barna for years and I have respect for his research. However, your observations are in line with many of my past observations. Barna nails an issue with great research, then often misses it with his analysis of his own data.

    Comment by Ted — January 3, 2008 #

  12. [...] second post sums up the arguments that defend point two above. (And Joe Thorn has also begun reviewing the book, with Bill Kinnon threatening to do so. Trevin Wax has a review [...]

    Pingback by NextReformation » Pagan Christianity — January 3, 2008 #

  13. [...] came across reviews of this book at Darryl Dash’s Blog and Pastor Joe Thorn, both of whom are blogging through it with apparently fairly balanced criticism thus far. I [...]

    Pingback by Pagan Christianity « a hundred visions and revisions — January 6, 2008 #

  14. [...] on what some people are saying there is my friend Dash: Post 1, Post 2, Post 3, Post 4, Joe Thorn Intro, Part 1, Part 2, Alan Hirsh,Trevin Wax and I’m assuming iMonk.  There is lots more to be [...]

    Pingback by theheresy.com » Blog Archive » Pagan Christianity, the church and scripture — January 6, 2008 #

  15. [...] for them to read and review.  And there have been a few.  Here’s an incomplete list: Pastor Joe Thorn, theheresy, Letters from Kamp Krusty, Kingdom People, Dash House, The Kingdom Come, Sue’s [...]

    Pingback by Kiwi and an Emu. » Blog Ripples No. 1. — January 7, 2008 #

  16. [...] book is getting significant buzz in the ’sphere. See Joe Thorn’s comments here, here, and here; Trevin Wax’s here; Brant Hansen’s here, and iMonk’s [...]

    Pingback by relevintage - a blog by brad andrews — January 8, 2008 #

  17. I have been the editor of Searching Together (formerly called Baptist Reformation Review) for 30 years. I’m one of those who has endorsed Frank and George’s book PAGAN CHRISTIANITY along with Howard Snyder, Robert Banks, Graydon Snyder, David Norrington, and other respected historians and professors…

    [edited by Joe Thorn]

    Comment by Jon Zens — January 9, 2008 #

  18. Jon, thanks for stopping by - and the very long “comment” that you are copying and pasting at other blogs. I have edited it since I don’t encourage that kind of drive by commenting. If people are interested, they can read Jon’s comment at Bob’s blog here. Jon, if you want to talk with the readers of this blog here, feel free to do so.

    Comment by Joe Thorn — January 9, 2008 #

  19. [...] Spencer is not an inerrantist nor a complementarian, so maybe he’s not a good example). Others do cast an evaluative eye over their own Church systems and acknowledge the need for some cha…. But the idea of a complete overhaul and maybe even getting rid of one-man preaching – preaching, [...]

    Pingback by Kiwi and an Emu. » Imonk, Peterson, Von Hugel et al barking up the wrong tree. — January 11, 2008 #

  20. [...] God Grown review. – iMonk’s humorous review. – Joe Thorn has four reviews so far: Link 1 Link 2 Link 3 Link 4 – Jordon Cooper review. – Josh Brown podcast with Frank here. [...]

    Pingback by Pagan Christianity Review Index | nathangann.com — January 13, 2008 #

  21. I have all of Franks books, just more idealism, there is no spititual nirvana on earth. With so many frustrated, anxiety driven christians today nobody knows what they are really looking for. Love, humility, simplicity can be found in churches where Christ is the Head and everybody else regardless of position are His assistants. I have travelled throughout the country visiting all kinds of churches and denomiantions and have found that Christ is most present in the churches that are led by a body of beleivers under Christ. It will surprrise Frank I’m sure that many of those places reflect a ancient kind of faith which would be seen as pagan from his perspective. The house church movement and its leaders can be just as arrogant and controlling and manipulitive as those he criticizes in Pagan Christianity. Praise God for the many healthy institutional church bodys in the USA and for the servants who lead the church on their knees. This kind of book can do more harm to the body for people are prone to naturally rebel and scatter. Then there will be an aftermath of disjointed broken Christians with no loving support system to be there in the hard times of life.

    Comment by clarke — February 11, 2008 #

  22. I believe the book is a ground swell to rethink and reconsider how we “do church”. It is healthy to have an open and honest forum without personal attacks. The book does not criticize any leader,Pastor, etc. It does causes one to get off the fence and find out not only where you stand but on whom you stand. What does it really mean that Christ is the only foundation? Is the Church building with hay wood or stubble or His very life. If you closed down the regular meetings of a traditional church or house church or whatever kind of church you attend for three months would the people still meet because they have a deep love for the Lord and each other. Is He the foundation or someother “thing “or “it “that keeps us together. Time and the cross will find out what we are really made of.

    Comment by Alan H — February 15, 2008 #

  23. I have read most of this book and have included my recommendation on my Website http://www.churchoftheway.us
    I have left two of the traditional Churches and some of those that left with me still meet over a potluck meal with Bible study. I think it’s time to go back to the Church as practiced during the Apostles time. As 1 Peter 2:9 says:
    But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:
    We are a “Royal Priesthood” and the Holy Spirit guides each of us and gives us the gifts necessary for the Church to thrive and function. We should leave Jesus Christ as our head and not replace Him with anyone!

    Comment by Richard Nielsen — February 18, 2008 #

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