The fourth interview in this Experiential Theology series is with Ray Ortlund, pastor of Immanuel Church in Nashville, Tennessee. Ray previously served on the Old Testament faculty of Trinity Evangelical Divinity School outside of Chicago for nine years, and has pastored churches in California, Oregon, and Georgia. Ray participated in The New Living Translation and the English Standard Version of the Bible, and contributed the introduction and study notes to the book of Isaiah in The ESV Study Bible. He also serves on the Council of The Gospel Coalition. You should be reading Ray’s blog, Christ is Deeper Still. But first, check out this interview with our brother where he shares his thoughts on the value and goal of theology.

Why does theology matter?

Theology matters because God matters. Theology, done properly, is the Bible prompting us to articulate our vision of God. The less articulate we are, we power down. The more articulate, the clearer, the more biblical, we power up and are enabled to live in new ways that show God really matters.

Theology matters because community matters. Theology connects us to one another through shared discourse and agreed upon categories. Ultimately, what unifies us is not a shared experience but shared beliefs.

Theology matters because mission matters. When living for Christ gets tough and even friends may fall away, our theological convictions remain close friends. They keep us going when truth is the only power left for missionality to stay alive.

What is the central task of the theologian?

To love the Triune God wholeheartedly, according to the Bible. Nothing complicates theology like academic detachment or worldly self-display or career ambition. Central to everything else about a theologian is a tender heart toward God, reverent toward the Scriptures.

How would you respond to those who say, “I’m not a theologian”?

I’d start out pretty nice: “Okay. God has called you to be a musician. Great.” Then I’d show my true colors: “But you cannot be the musician God wants you to be without going deeper than that. You need to think biblically about who God is, who you are, what’s gone wrong, what God has done about it through Christ, and where it’s all going. That’s theology. It changes how you see everything. So unless you want to be a shallow musician, you need to become a theologian/musician. And you can be.”

What advice would you give to the average Christian who loves Jesus and the church, but needs to grow theologically?

Here’s one way to jump in. Pull some friends together, everybody buy a copy of Driscoll and Breshears, Doctrine, and work through it together. Check out the small group suggestions on pages 437-450. Read it slowly. Embrace the difficulty. Look up every word you don’t understand. Mark up your copy with questions and highlights. Get mad if you have to. But pray to God for clarity, and he’ll give it. As you read, keep checking it against the Bible, examine what your friends say too, and don’t let go until you really know what you believe. You will never be the same again.

We know heretics are bad theologians, but can one be a bad Reformed theologian? How?

Our minds were created to admire grandeur and coherence and challenge. Reformed theology provides all that, plus more. So we like it. But given our wickedness, the very excellence of Reformed theology can make us weird. We can admire our theology of God rather than God, because the theology itself really is gorgeous – but only as a dim reflection of the One described there.

Worse yet, we can admire ourselves for being so smart: “We get it, we’re Reformed, we’re not like those Arminian idiots over there in that other group.” God hates pride. All pride. Reformed pride.

Final thought. Through the years I have learned a lesson: Everything man-made will let us down. Everything, eventually. Even theological systems. Only Jesus will never let us down. We appreciate Reformed theology. But let’s put our final trust here: the risen Lord Jesus Christ himself, our dear Friend, the only Savior of sinners.

Previous Interviews:

Experiential Theology with Tom Nettles
Theology and Preaching with John Koessler
Theology and Worship with Mike Cosper

Mike Cosper is the Worship and Arts Pastor at Sojourn Community Church in Louisvilly, KY. Sojourn is a beautiful model of gospel-centered community, ministry, mission, and worship, and when I thought of talking with someone about worship and theology I immediately emailed Mike. He was kind enough to share some great thoughts with us.

What place does theology have in corporate worship?

Our worship services are necessarily theological. It’s never a question of whether or not we’ll do theology when we gather – it’s a question of what kind of theology, or of what depth of theology we will do.

The goal of a pastor of worship is to accurately and thoroughly give voice to the theology that shapes the life and practices of the church, and the goal of the gathering is to give language and expression to the core values an theology of the church.

How explicit should our theology be in corporate worship?

Our theology should be very clear. What we do when we gather shapes the ways our people think about life and faith, and we are either equipping them with meat and substance or with platitudes and sentimentalism.

I like how Kevin Twit puts it: “our gatherings should prepare people for their encounter with death.”

How does theology shape what you do at Sojourn gathered?

We have a strong liturgical structure for our gatherings, and that flows from our theology of worship and our ecclesiology (theology of the church).

A biblical theology of worship tells us that Christians have only one call to worship (the call of the Gospel) and only one worship leader, our singing savior, Jesus Christ. Biblical texts like the book of Hebrews and Revelation show us that our Savior is at the center of worship, leading us in praise to the Father, while the Father calls us to praise the Son. The Spirit of God inhabits our hearts, makes the Gospel call effective, and stirs us to respond in worship.

Functionally, our gathering is shaped to remember the Gospel, remember the work of Christ, and celebrate him as the center and leader of our worship. For instance, we regularly try to remind the church that when they worship, they join the Son in glorifying the Father, they join the Father in glorifying the Son, and they join the Spirit in glorifying the Father and the Son. We also remind them that the worship leader on the platform isn’t doing something priestly or sacramental, but is just another member of the body of Christ. Only Jesus can lead us to throne room, only Jesus can make God’s presence powerful and intimate, and only the Holy Spirit can stir hearts. Worship leaders (and congregations, for that matter) merely participate in the glory-sharing work of the Trinity. So we cultivate humility and simplicity in our attitudes towards worship.

Ecclesiology is really important too. In the New Testament, we see the concept of worship as a time and place reality thoroughly deconstructed by Jesus (John 4), Paul (Romans 12), and the author of Hebrews. So one could be left with an understanding of worship that asks, “why gather?” I’ve developed a little memory device that helps teach the way that the Bible explains worship. It’s called “Worship 1,2,3”

Worship has ONE object – the triune God, revealed in the scripture as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Worship has TWO contexts – the broad context of all of life (unceasing, living-sacrifice worship) and the narrow context of the gathered church, who gathers to encourage and build one another up, offering a foretaste of what is to come when Christ returns an heaven and earth are joined together. (Jeremy Begbie calls this an “echo of the future,” which is one of the coolest phrases in all of Christendom.)

Worship has THREE audiences – Our Triune God is both the object of worship and one of its audiences, but the scriptures also tell us to pay attention to two other audiences – the Gathered Church (Colossians 3:16, Hebrews 10:23-24), and the watching world (1 Corinthians 14:22-40).

Can theology in worship be done poorly? How?

One way I think about this question is to refer to the device above. If one confuses the object of worship with the audience of worship, or diminishes one context over another, or one audience over another, it gets confusing, weird, or worse.

For instance, many worship leaders have encountered the eager, young theologian in their church who makes this statement: “Since worship is to God alone, we should only sing songs that speak directly to Him. We should not sing songs that address people, since we aren’t worshipping people.”

It’s a sweet sentiment, but it ignores the reality that our singing is for God and his church, and ignores the evidence from the Psalms that singing to people about God is clearly a welcome practice for God’s people.

Some movements have so emphasized the presence of outsiders that there is no meat, no substance, to build up the body of Christ. Other movements within the church deemphasize the Gathered body of Christ, and deemphasize the worship of the local church as a direct or indirect result. I recently heard Alan Hirsch essentially argue against the church gathering to sing because he believed that the oddity of the church gathering to sing was a hindrance to mission. It will make outsiders feel awkward, as the whole gathering of the church tends to do. I think the Bible, and history for that matter, would argue that singing is a deeply human act. In our disaffected and dehumanized techno-culture, singing is something that rehumanizes us in the church, reconnects us to one another and to history. Hirsch and others need to address the plain reality that the Bible calls us to gather and SING. The lack of a communal singing culture in the West today is a sad fact, but isn’t a reality that the church must embrace for the sake of mission. Go to a U2 or Springsteen concert and tell me people don’t want to gather and sing anymore. Maybe we just aren’t giving them anything worth singing at our gatherings… Which is a whole different issue altogether.

Worship is certainly an all of life reality, but it is also a practice that we embrace as a foretaste of heaven, gathering with Christ’s church out of exile, and joining our voices in hopes of a glorious day that is yet to come.

In a totally different stream of thought, I think many churches lack any real theology for worship. No one (including the leaders) know why the church is gathering or what their goal in gathering is. The service is only governed by a quest for a certain kind of emotional high, or a certain kind of mood. Our ecclesiology becomes a measuring stick by which we know the mission is accomplished in our gathering. Without any biblical, rooted ecclesiology, what is guiding us?

What advice would you give church leaders who recognize the need for theology to impact and characterize their worship gatherings?

One time, after a Sojourn service many years ago, Chip Stam (a prof at Southern Seminary and a brilliant mind on issues related to worship) gave me the most painful critique I’ve ever received. Essentially, he told me that the music was great, and the service was well executed for what it was, but that apart from the sermon, the entire thing could have been held in a Synagogue or a Unitarian church, and no one would have been offended. In a similar vein, I heard C.J. Mahaney say that at Sovereign Grace, they want to make sure no one who attends can ever think that worship is possible without a mediator.

I was crushed by Chip’s critique. Especially when I realized he was right. His comment spurred a journey that has led us to the liturgical model we practice now, where the Gospel is clearly proclaimed throughout the movements of the service. Liturgy isn’t the only way to prevent that from happening, but I would want to challenge worship leaders to ask what their measuring stick is in their planning. What is a well-planned service?

The Gospel needs to be proclaimed and celebrated in a way that prepares people for all of life – suffering, death, joy, births, successes, and failures. Our understanding of the depths of the Gospel will have a direct impact on the way we proclaim it in our gatherings. As John Wesley once said, people won’t leave a service quoting a sermon as often as they’ll leave singing a song. Worship leaders need to be pastors and theologians so that they can skillfully teach through songs and services what the Gospel has to offer us in each facet of life, so that when suffering and hard times come, they have the words in their hearts and minds to cling to the cross.

Be sure to share your thoughts on worship and Mike’s words in the comments. If you are unfamiliar with some of the music released through Sojourn be sure to check out their albums Before the Throne, Advent Songs, and Over the Grave.

Previous Interviews:

Experiential Theology with Tom Nettles
Theology and Preaching with John Koessler

Hell is not cool, PC or even fun to preach; not if you take it seriously. It’s a heavy, sober and genuinely terrifying topic. My Theology Matters series wraps up this week with a sermon on Hell, and I thought I would share why I believe preaching on hell is valuable.

1. It demonstrates the holiness and justice of God.
Throughout Scripture God makes it clear that he cannot overlook sin. He will not give our pride a pass, nor look the other way when we covet or lust, nor will he just forgive us. His righteousness demands satisfaction against all unrighteousness, and because God is so wonderfully consistent in his person and work we face the terrifying reality that our sin demands satisfaction. Preaching on hell reveals a holy and just God.

2. It uncovers the seriousness and heinousness of sin.
It’s impossible to see our sin as too ugly. I think most people tend to see sin as little more than an interruption to a happier day. But it’s the reality of hell that helps us to begin to grasp just how serious an issue our corruption is. It is worthy of and earns God’s wrath. We are corrupted and condemned because of our sinful actions, thoughts and nature. Preaching on hell uncovers the ugliness of our sin.

3. It reveals the severity of the sufferings of Jesus on behalf of sinners.
I do not believe Jesus, after his death on the cross, went to “hell.” But I do believe, with Calvin, that Scripture teaches Jesus went through hell (the wrath of God) on the cross. Christ propitiatory work on the cross is what allows God to be both just and justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Preaching on hell forces us to confront God’s holiness, our ugliness and the wonder of the cross where these two realities came together in the all satisfying work of the Savior.

So I’m preaching on hell – not to scare people away from hell (in fact, I don’t think that generally works). I am preaching on hell to highlight law and gospel. As we see our guilt and just condemnation (hell deserved), we are then drawn to the grace and redemption offered in Jesus (hell satisfied).

Looking for a solid, classic treatment on the subject? I dig WGT Shedd’s The Doctrine of Endless Punishment. Get it.

We only have two more sermons left in our Theology Matters series. This week we focus on Heaven (and the eternal state of God’s people), and next week is on hell. I’m encouraging our people to pick up The Bible and the Future by Anthony Hoekema. With all the nutty theories, crazy books and worse movies out there The Bible and the Future is a must have for those who want to begin developing a robust theology of the culmination of the history of redemption.

I know, you may not even be interested. It’s all so vague, mysterious, and everyone seems to have a different opinion of how things will shake out in the end – how can we be sure? And does it even matter? Really? Well, as a matter of fact – it does. Yes, really.

Throughout Scripture God is always telling his people to look forward, to what is to come; to look ahead to the fulfillment of his promises to us, his people. As Hoekema says early on, “Properly to understand biblical eschatology, we must see it as an integral aspect of all of biblical revelation. Eschatology must not be thought of as something which is found only in, say, such Bible books as Daniel and Revelation, but as dominating and permeating the entire message of the Bible.” In short, if you are negligent in developing a biblical eschatology, you will have a deficiency in your faith that will have an impact on your walk with Jesus.

I picked up this book 12 years ago while a student at Moody. Hoekema cut through a lot of the nonsense I was reading in other books and delivered a truly biblical treatment of the subject that I am still grateful for. It’s a must read; a great entry to an often neglected or abused theological discipline.

How can we talk about the “end times” without a clip from Thief in the Night.

That theology is neglected is easy enough to establish. But that it is abused by those who claim to love it is perhaps a more necessary point to make in my circles. All who love theology, please take note:

[Theology] ought not to be laid on the shelf, as an object of speculation; but it should be deposited deep in the heart, where its sanctifying power ought to be felt. To study theology, for the purpose of gratifying curiosity, or preparing for a profession, is an abuse and profanation of what ought to be regarded as most holy. To learn things pertaining to God, merely for the sake of amusement, or secular advantage, or to gratify the mere love of knowledge, is to treat the Most High with contempt.

John Dagg, Manual of Theology

James P. Boyce wrote that all who engage in theological study should do so with the proper “spirit.”

1. With reverence for truth, and especially for the truth taught in the Word of God.

2. With earnest prayer for Divine help.

3. With careful searching of heart against prejudice.

4. With timidity, as to the reception and propagation of new doctrine.

5. But with a spirit willing and anxious to examine, and to accept whatever we may be convinced is true.

6. With teachable humility, which, knowing that God has not taught us in his word all the truth that exists, not even all the truth on many a single point, accepts with implicit faith all that he has taught, and awaits his own time for that more full revelation which shall remove all our present perplexities.
Abstract of Systematic Theology